The first thing I did as Home Secretary was abolish all police targets and set chief constables one clear objective: cut crime. I haven’t asked the police to be social workers, I haven’t set them any performance indicators, and I haven’t given them a thirty point plan, I’ve told them to cut crime.
Theresa May’s speech to the Conservative party conference 2011.
abolish all police targets
Like every other Inspector and Sergeant serving with F Division, Ruralshire Constabulary, I have just been sent details of our targets for the period up to Christmas. Every PC has been sent a summary version. I have kept the email.
one clear objective: cut crime
These targets consist of every type of police activity from attendance times to vehicle checks. Only something like 20% of the targets concern cutting crime. To be fair, this is because we can’t cut crime since the courts are letting criminals off with non-custodial sentences now.
I haven’t asked the police to be social workers
As a Response Team, on our last set of nights we mainly dealt with suicide threats, missing so-called vulnerable juveniles, ‘collapsed behind closed doors’ calls, child protection issues and mental health patients in the community becoming violent and distressed. I think we went to two ‘intruders on’ burglary calls.
I haven’t set them any performance indicators
Funny that, because in the very next sentence she says I’ve told them to cut crime. How do we cut crime if we don’t have performance indicators? Do we simply guess? Of course we have performance indicators. And by the way, there are plenty of multi-point plans around. They come so think and fast in the email in boxes that the delete button on the Inspector’s computer at work has lost its lettering!
My thoughts:
For once I am not actually complaining about any of this stuff. I just feel a burning need to inform the public and the media that just about everything the Home Secretary and Policing Minister say about policing is drivel. There are several options. They are telling lies, they don’t really know what is happening or a combination of the two. I don’t really care which it is.
But it is becoming humiliating for any Tory councillor or MP who comes near the nick to be constantly shown the evidence that we still have loads of targets, and that most of what we do on the front line has little to do with crime these days. We are still the only social service, mental health service and child protection service willing to help at night and at the weekend. Most crisis situations happen then.
My other thoughts are these; if the things they say about criminal justice and policing are such nonsense, which I know they are because I am’ living the dream’ so to speak, how much of everything else they say is rubbish as well? Defence? Education? Health? maybe, gulp, the economy?
Gadget Note: Inspector Gadget is a front-line emergency services worker, currently working 24/7 shifts with a very small team of police constables and sergeants. We are supposed to cover 200 sq miles, but spend all our time on the Swamp Estate in Ruraltown, nicking the same people over and over again, going to the same houses, dealing with the same criminal underclass incidents and at the same time, trying to save the lives of the same suicidal and mentally ill people.
We don’t mind doing this, we just don’t like it being lied about and misrepresented.
Surely not?
1st
2nd then… Happy!
A second first??
Meh, 3rd! It’ll do ‘spose!
Top 3?
Closest for me yet
Whoo Hoo not on the podium but loving it (someone buy me a life for the winter solstice please)
10 !
This is because work in Police IT and get confused with the counting and understanding startistics.
Someone should do a FOI for how many staff (civil service & seconded police officers) and outside consultants plus year on year cost of systems devoted to collecting and collating the stats at the Home Office.
Ahhhh – haaaaa …so you want us to provide statistics on statistics, well thats going to cost a bob or two . Most forces have a specialist team that provides statistics on how the force performs , otherwise how do you know if the crime rate is going down and how do you get the FOI information ? Masters of the spreadsheet they be .
There are loads at the Home Office too collating them and representing them, plus devising ever more complex counting rules.
A force near me has published ‘cost of Freedom of Information Requests – Year to Date’ figure prominently on their FOIA internet page.
Approaching £500,000 this year.
NIce.
How ON EARTH are the Daily Mail going to react to that – it’ll twist them so far up in knots they’ll disappear up their own ar*es!
I’d bet something like “Police throw away half a million a year telling the public things they should be told anyway” knowing those cnuts.
The point of hilighting how many people in the Home Office are collecting and processing stats that according to Ms May have been abolished would be to show how mendacious the claim is. Surely it would be politically embarrassing for her.
podium?
bah, 7th. Humbug.
4th, pb for me
Top ten!
20?
Typical politician, can’t tell the truth.
top 20? Damned slow work computer using citrix!
She is oblivious to the real world! No targets or performance indicators…
Look at any MET crime figures and suddenly there is a dip in robberies (got to hit that target) and an amazing rise in Theft Snatches (which are robberies but the question the victims get asked is “how much force was used”. If not much = snatch!!!)
Makes the response teams blood boil when we see our initial robbery investigations changed as to a snatch just to please the bosses and her majesty at the home office!
Why is anyone surprised? She’s a politician, therefore she will tell lies to suit her audience.
Only one person to my knowledge ever went into parliament and tried to do what he promised. We burn effigies of him every Nov 5th.
Ffawkes was just the fall guy. Let us not forget the other plotters, Thomas Bates, Robert Wintour, Christopher Wright, John Wright, Thomas Percy, Robert Catesby and Thomas Wintour.
“”Only one person to my knowledge ever went into parliament and tried to do what he promised”"
Indeed … Guido Fawkes has a web-blog at order-order.com
Well worth a read – Ms May is a regular topic of conversation as well as other “elected members” and their shenanigans
He describes himself as “the only man to enter parliament with honest intention. The intention being to blow it up with gunpowder”
someone once said that we are just social workers with handcuffs. Last set of shifts consisted of constants and babysitting suicidals. Again we do it cos social services knock off at five and put the answerphone on!
As late as that? Round our way if you call after four you usually get ‘we’re too busy, you’ll have to call the out-of-ours team after five’!
“”cos social services knock off at five and put the answerphone on”"
Ours phone up every week on Friday at 4pm with a wedge of “concerns for welfares” aka balls of shite they have not sorted and want to leftshoulder to someone over the weekend in case the “service user” drinks to excess, tops themselves or does a whole host of things that would look bad
Top 20…. Although Crap i’m pleased to have beaten JimTC.
What annoys me is how our local mental hospital can say NO because someone has been drinking. I mean FFS, that’s when they are their most vulnerable. And I’m pretty sure it’s not my job to babysit mentally ill people until they are sober.
Yep those “caring professionals” that think that the right place for a drugged up/drunk, vulnerable mentally-ill patient is a cell and not a bed.
Criminal.
Sometimes appears that Cops are the only ones who give a f*ck.
We’re the only ones too scared to say No….
Either that or the one with the weakest management or the weakest union.
All three.
AGREED, PLUS WE GIVE A SHIT, WHICH MAKES US DIFFERENT….
I was a cop for 30 years. My daughter is a mental health nurse. The NHS are being squeezed just as badly as the Police. Did you know for instance that in the new year only one qualified nurse will be left in charge of wards containing 16 or more patients on night shifts, and no the patients aren’t all drugged or asleep all night. This arrangement of course is in breach of all established health and safety guidelines within their profession agreed over many years of operation. She worked for the Police as an Holmes indexer before she decided to go into mental health nursing so is as pro-Police as I am. Some of the stories she tells about the failure of our glorious profession to help them in their hour of need makes my hair curl to be honest. The whole point here is that successive governments are to blame for the mess we are all in and everyone is trying to get by as best they can. The Police are not the only ones suffering and not the only ones in the firing line either.
Do they?
Seems to me that no one gives a f*ck.
When I was a custody skipper I refused to book in drunks – sent them and the PC to hospital. Pretty soon my team learned to call an ambulance for drunks at the scene.
“”What annoys me is how our local mental hospital can say NO because someone has been drinking.”"
Indeed so – ours come out with a breath kit FFS and refuse to take anyone who has had a drink.
We might have to say … find your own missing patients if you have been daft enough to give them unescorted leave around the hospital grounds and no surprise they do one !
IG you missed the bit about Domestics being Proiritised above everything else !
You forgot about diverse disproportionately critical incidents in the community.
My old division now has a DV hub, which has drawn from the already short staffed response units. They now view DV logs, make their profound experienced judgements by listening to the initial 999 call and pass on tasks to the poor attending response colleague. Once the incident has been dealt with, the same responding bobby has to write up the log with points 1-27 and then duplicate it so that some tosser in their ivory tower can rip it to pieces the following morning with hindsight. It’s now easier to lock em up than to use a bit of common sense but then again… It’s just another non target set by TM and her bunch of ACPOO clowns!!!
Jobs well and truely fooked!!!
Damn right boss – The targets where i am if anything have increased in terms of how many there are!!
Just goes to show how out of control the Police senior management are. If they won’t do as they are bid, why should we take any notice of them? Why should the public take any notice of the Police when ordered about?
Woooooosh!!!! That’s the sound of the point flying right over your head.
@MCM
I believe that IG is aiming at the wrong target on this occasion. I know that the Home Secretary is a politician, but let us take her at her word until she is proven to be a liar.
What we have not heard is how the ACPO Ltd grades are attempting to put her words into action. I guess that is because they are not making any attempt.
It is my somewhat jaundiced opinion that the ACPO Ltd are singing from their own hymn sheet here, and ignoring their instructions. After all, with their own Common Purpose agenda to follow, the instructions of anyone other than the Hard Left are of no interest to them.
I then moved to making a comment that if the ACPO Ltd grades can get away with ignoring instructions from those who are in a position (however unwisely it may turn out to be) to issue those instructions, then I see no reason why the general public should take any notice of Police instructions. Or is it one rule for them and … … ?
In other comments it has been said that this performance data is presented to the Home Office via a web portal that they provide.
I therefore accept that she is at least either a liar or incompetent, and that she could be both. Nevertheless I maintain my complaint against the ACPO Ltd
You think its bad now
Wait til DOTC
Dawn of the Commissioners
Be afraid, be very afraid
Sparrow,
You might just find that an elected Commissioner is just what your force needs.
Remember I am doing very well.
It’s about time we learned to say “sorry its not a police matter”.
We should be about law enforcement, “has a crime been committed? “No? Then phone social services…..”
The old adage of ‘If it’s not on fire call the police’ is outdated and the. public need to know this. The police are not the moral guardians of the state we 3nforce its Law….
Sorry rant over!
We received a call recently to a fire, as the caller ‘didn’t want to disturb the fire brigade’ as it wasn’t a serious fire.
But yeah, how can you educate the public when they’ve had a lifetime of seeing the Police make up for other organisations shortfalls.
Perhaps caller remembered the firemens’ strike and thought you would respond by p***ing on it!
Either that or they knew they’d be asleep….
fées d Aqua
But you do say “its not a police matter” even when it is!
I have no doubt the “front office” is told to try to cut the number of
complainants down due to; Shortage of staff, not serious enough or not understanding the complaint.
I do not blame the front office, it seems to be staffed by either civilians or a
“pavement dodger” under instructions for “up high”.
The further up the command chain one goes the further from reality one goes.
What makes me shake my head with disbelieve is that their misconduct is put in writing and the fact that out of six Officers, five are female who I would not trust to show children across the road let alone in a position of responsibilities.
As a MOP it is quite obvious that there is something very, very wrong with how the police are managed.
It is no different from other organisations, Council, NHS, Social services etc. etc. There are those who do and those who don’t but “manage” even if it is quite obvious that they are useless at their task; its the nature of the beast unfortunately and the police are the last organisation to fall victim to this process.
This is due to the large numbers of “old coppers” that needed to retire before
time serving place-”people” could be promoted in their place.
Comments?
How about ‘your post doesn’t make an enormous amount of sense as it assumes we have knowledge of your personal complaint (we don’t) and flits from topic to topic seemingly at random’?
For the record, in Metrocity many front offices are staffed by Response officers who would much rather be out on the street taking calls and looking for crims. If they are anything like me, they cordially despise being stuck in the nick trying to filter the genuine victims and upstanding MOPs from the dross, slag, liars and loonies.
Also worthy of note is that maybe, just maybe we occasionally say ‘it’s not a police matter’ because it – regardless of how important or life-changing it undoubtedly is to the complainant – isn’t.
1. The previous posts were giving examples of calls that were not in the remit of the police.
2. On the occasions I have attended police stations there only seems to be civilian workers not experienced police officers behind the safety glass
3. I agree that police stations have become “places of safety” for the
“vulnerable” due to the 9-5 attitude of those who are paid to “care” for these poor souls, and why is that? Why was the situation allowed to develop?
4. My complaint was accepted by a senior Officer and a crime number issued
after being told three time that it was not a “police matter”, so, once I spoke to a police Sargent all was well.
It was after my complaint was accepted it all went very very wrong!
It has yet to be resolved, so, no specifics.
Had similar happen to me. MOP wanted a crime submitting I refused as no crime had been committed. Guy visits local station and puts in an official complaint and refuses local resolution. Sgt takining a complaint submits a crime which supports the guys argument. 6 months of PSD investigations shows me in the clear and the crime cancelled.
So you’ll excuse me if I take what you say with a pinch of salt.
Hah SD you will be well chuffed with the IPCC’s newest beef. It is disappointed at the latest Police complaints stats..
http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/police_complaints_statistics_2010-11.aspx
This quote from Deborah Glass is a classic.
“We have, within the past year, launched a campaign to encourage the police to ‘get it right first time’. For many complaints this means recording them and dealing with them properly at a local level. So often it is about listening to people about where they feel the police service has failed them and providing an explanation or an apology where something has gone wrong.”
Oh man Let’s keep listening to the malicious? complaining from all angles especially from the slag nicked, Mops insisting they know all about policing, journos and all those we fail blah blah blah!
“The most common aspects of policing that people complained about remained the same as in previous years, with nearly 50% of allegations about neglect or failure in duty (27%) and incivility, impoliteness and intolerance (18%).”
However there was a drop in 4% of complaints received from previous year.
What????
Officer my phone has been nicked… Has it really?…. Bit of investigation later… Yeah i lost it and inly wanted to report it for insurance purposes.
Time wasting tossers.
I as a response team officer cannot stand the amount of false shite i have to deal with when on a station office posting.
Then address why these tossers try it on, or are you told not to?
PC Angry
Wish I had a fiver for every one of them I heard.
I used to enjoy INTERROGATING the OBVIOUS lying bastards who were after a new phone on an insurance claim.
I got SH*T loads of them to cough over the years……….VERY REWARDING !
Problem with that was we had the SHIRKERS for whom it was easier to just crime it and make it someone else’s problem.
Or the some lazy SPROGS criming them who were just interested in getting a “TICK” for the day.
I had one tosser reporting his phone stolen, called the number and it rang in his pocket,
Do what I do make them sit down tell them a statement will have to be taken and make them sign the MG11 disclamer, before anything else, also tell them the statement will take about an hour.
Comments? OK.
You are a fool if you think the experienced cops are the problem. The promotion-hungry policy-compliant risk-averse deskbound admin wranglers tend to be the short-service-in-each-rank young types you seem to want accelerated up the ladder.
You can’t form an accurate opinion of an individual copper based on their length of service any more than you can base one on their hair colour. Or their gender, although that seems relevant to you.
What do you do for a living? I’ll see if I can ignorantly tell you what’s wrong with your job.
I am all for citizens telling us what they want from the police. It’s essential. But it isn’t the same as sitting on an armchair spouting drivel about how to do it without any operational knowledge or experience whatsoever.
Now, what were you told wasn’t a police matter? Perhaps someone who knows what they’re talking about might explain it for you.
“The promotion-hungry policy compliant risk adverse desk-bound admin wranglers tend to be short-service-in-each-rank young types you seem to want to accelerate up the ladder”
Far from it! My remarks about other large organisations, Councils, NHS etc.
where the administration is more important that the “front line service” is the problem effecting the police. Once you leave the operational level you enter a make believe world of flow charts and new procedures with “crime managers” deciding which crimes will be investigated depending on the current crime statistics. ( this week we need to lower the XXX crime numbers)
I’ve re-read all that. I think we actually agree. But then again, with 3 hours kip, I’m not entirely sure.
I liked the pictures of yesteryear when there was respect for the police .
My main concern is that when social services, children services, mental health and the NHS etc. can no longer cope because of the forthcoming cuts, who will carry the resultant extra burden?
I obviously already know the answer… You and me!!!!
But we will have to carry that extra burden and manage our own excessive fundin cuts!!!
With each intervention from above the job gets harder and harder. And the definition of “improvement” is when some of the absolute worst changes are partially changed back. Only partially though.
I’m not sure what the point of having the police actually is anymore. I fell like the striker on a football team, but the rules have been re-written to say that I am not allowed to score any goals. I do get the blame when we lose though……
Same thing in my Farce.
Getting cut down to the bone, resources running out on most sets of shifts due to dealing with Mental patients, Mispers etc.
The sad thing is this…we have crime teams, CID, PHT etc, all working LIKE CRAZY! trying to get the detection rate AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE! whilst being TOTALLY AND UTTERLY SHAFTED BY THIS GOVT.
WHY I ASK, WHY?
How long can this Govt. possibly get away with this for? Forever, as long as we have Idiots doing the above.
Top 40, back of the net.
Even the most looney leftie must know in the bottom of her heart that police time is wasted 95 % of all times on swamp dwellers.
I think the most important part of Gadget’s statement above is
“We don’t mind doing this, we just don’t like it being lied about and misrepresented.”
nocciolo nociolorum -
nocciolo nociolorum – I got excited for a moment – a Googlewhack! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlewhack but sadly not words in the English dictionary.
In metrocity we have a target to make sure we make an entry on the custody record as to whether or not a S.18 search has been carried out for any serious aquisitive crime arrest……….Yawn, failure means a strongly worded email from a CI! We now even have to complete bail checks for people who are not being bailed or are being NFA’d!!!!!!!!!! Every week there comes some other pointless exercise/target, its wearing thin!
The problem with sec 18s in London is that a fairly short distance can take you an age to cover. In the counties, a 10-mile trip is considered close, and can take as little as 20 mins. Ten miles in the Met can take well over an hour – so a sec 18 can take half a shift! It’s no wonder McPherson was surprised when he arrived from Norfolk and found that our sec 18 rate was through the floor!
Has anyone moved into this century and got digitised search records? Every time I have to do a S18 I have to play the game of find-the-duty-inspector which can add 30mins onto a search. I’m not entirely sure why the book needs to be signed, we have to get the auth also put on the custody record – surely just on the custody record would be more appropriate.
As much as I like getting into offenders faces and doing things like bail checks I don’t think we help ourselves sometimes with blanket bail checks for people with one or two previous and we should instead be focused on I don’t know – being out there and actually patrolling?
On nights we lose a double crewed car to bail checks, the last time I was victim to it we did somewhere in the region of 40 checks. I put a hundred miles on the panda, upset a load of people who said ‘he don’t live here mate, told the officers last night’ – I don’t think I really deterred or prevented any crime. Still it puts a tick in a box – daily management is apparently an upsetting place if its not done?!
Since our latest reorganisation (sigh) our Public Protection/Protecting Vulnerable People/another name coming department are passing out meetings for us on the LPT/SNT/NPT to attend to.
I have one coming up this weekend, the last one was a waste of time and i predict this one will be. Social services seem to like having us there, despite the impact on their tea and biscuit budget. I guarantee i will not cut crime in those meetings.
Last shift was spent looking for a bloke who hadn’t responded for 2weeks to his mate from the next county. Mate thought he was dead….he wasn’t but it took a couple of hours to locate and do safe and well. No crime was cut, people seemed happy with us though….local target of making people happy achieved. Home Secretary 0 v Police Authority Target 1. Sing when your winning….you only sing when your winning !!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075742/Thug-hit-police-officer-stone-concrete-block-thrown-building-Bristol-riots-Tesco-store-jailed.html
7 and a half years so out in 3, not bad for nearly killing someone. That sentence isn’t really long enough but I wouldn’t mind so much if he was going to serve all of it.
Even so, a surprisingly stiff sentence considering it was ‘only’ a police officer he almost killed!
Quite frankly, I’m prepared to call this one a result…
Absolutely – compare and contrast the fella who lobbed a fire extinguisher off Millbank Tower.
Targets for vehicle checks?That surely is contrary to the Data Protection Act-the vehicle can only be checked if you have a valid reason-not to reach targets.
Targets for Stop and search-contrary to PACE and the Codes Of Practice-Would not the Grauniad love that story.
Attendance times-You mean you want me to drive like a maniac so you can tick the box?F*** right off unless you are are going to stand in the dock with me at Crown Court.
Arrest targets-Contrary to PAce and the police Reform Act-POAs can only be exercised within the framework of the law not to meet targets.
Crime being reclassified or no crimed.Do not do it-misconduct of the highest level in a discipline case and or Misconduct in Public Office.
Do not do it-cover your arse at all times and when it goes wrong you will be safe despite the best efforts of the governors
I read that as he meant the weekly vehicle checks being completed and recorded. Blue lights, siren working. oil level ok etc.
Or in other words get a job inside doing very little except appeasing the boss and study for the next rank to get out of the firing line, if in the Met get a job at the yard you can get well lost in the system there.
That sums up the modern police service riverside!!
I follow law and nothing else. I crime stuff as It should be, not criminal damage to door handle.
They can send their emails, but if it went further, they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on
I’m with you on that. PACE tells me what to do, so surely if I don’t do it, I breach PACE and am then in the shit. Policy is a guide, if I breach that, oh well, I’ll be told how they want it next time. By which time it will have been rewritten and I’ll default to PACE again anyway, and we’ll start all over again.
RSM
I heard some brilliant news over the weekend, my old sub has cleared the uniform shiney arses out of the help desk, audit sections type jobs and put them back on response and sectors!!!! Apparently there was much screaming and gnashing of teeth. My informant has about 14 years in and she said that in that time she had never seen one of the ex-shiney arses out othe office. Its her time now as she is a Sgt and he used to send her really shitty messages about why this hadn’t been done and that recorded–Happy days for her, revenge is a dish best served cold, apparently he’s walking the town beat a lot.
The police have lost their way.
Police people should be people that uphold the law and assist when needed and should be respected.
The patheticness of target culture and whose boots are more shiny are enough to make an average person puke.
I heard a cop saying how he ‘won’ the most arrests in the last month. If I had the most arrests in thge last month I would be on the phone wondering where the bloody social workers are.
Just sayin’.
I am the police. I have not lost my way. The police force, however, has IMHO.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075772/Teenagers-girl-5-sleeping-abandoned-stolen-car-arrested-THEMSELVES-police.html?ITO=1490
Doesn’t the Fail just lurrve this type of story.
If they hadn’t been locked up and they had been involved, the Officers would have been criticised!
“If they hadn’t been locked up and they had been involved, the Officers would have been criticised!”
If officers were made personally liable for any financial compensation that arrested people might be entitled to, they may have decided to act in a more professional manner and checked the story thoroughly before taking arresting them. Unfortunately, they acted like cowboys and made the Force look a laughing stock that employs idiots.
\\ If officers were made personally liable for any financial compensation that arrested people might be entitled to, they may have decided to act in a more professional manner and checked the story thoroughly before taking arresting them. \\
Yawn.
And how do you expect the officers to be able to check stuff out whilst standing at the roadside at 3am? The whole *point* of arrest is to facilitate such actions – in police parlance it’s called “an investigation”
pj21 wrote: The whole *point* of arrest is to facilitate such actions – in police parlance it’s called “an investigation”
The effect however is to criminalise the arrested. DNA and fingerprints on file for the rest of their lives, and then some (ie for at least 100 years from date of birth). Just the sort of treatment reserved for convicted criminals in previous generations.
These days I’d suggest that there is an agenda to get the whole of the population on the National DNA database, and the National fingerprint database.
‘there is an agenda to get the whole of the population on the National DNA database, and the National fingerprint database’
and this is a bad thing why? what are you trying to hide? been a bit naughty in the past have we?
IG wrote: “and this is a bad thing why? what are you trying to hide? been a bit naughty in the past have we?”
Let us address these unfounded allegations in reverse order:
No we have not been a bit naughty in the past. The tone of your comment doesn’t help much either, Officer.
I am not trying to hide anything. Why does the assertion of a right to privacy immediately cause some people assume worst case? As you obviously have no curtains on your windows, I’ll pop round one evening to watch you and Debbie Gadget expressing your passion for each other. You won’t mind, will you?
The idea that you have the whole of the population on a database containing DNA and fingerprint records changes the entire course of justice in the UK. You immediately put the burden of proof onto the accused to prove their innocence, and destroy the “innocent until proven guilty” approach that has been with us at least since the Magna Carta.
It also opens the way for a greater abuse of power than we have ever seen in this country before. Take also into account the fact that the Statute Book also has on it the Civil Contingencies Act, and the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act, and an Absolute ruler has all that he needs.
Unfortunately, they acted like cowboys and made the Force look a laughing stock that employs idiots.
Oscar, sadly that appears to occur more frequently these days. After all how difficult could it have been to find out where those lads lived by offering them a lift home? In my humble opinion the officers involved in this debacle should face a disciplinary board if not the actual sack.
IG,
I have great respect for what you and your team (and of course the other serving officers) do on a daily basis.
However I think that the matter is a bit more subtle than the ‘lies, ignorance or both’ option that you present.
In a speech to their part conference then any politician (of whatever party) will be using a lot of rhetoric that is clearly not 100% true but cannot, at least IMHO, be called lies.
I think phrases such as ‘abolish all police targets’ and ‘one clear objective: cut crime’ fall clearly into that category. They represent a desired direction of travel not the detail of the way that the police will work as from tomorrow.
Similarly I don’t think that ‘I haven’t set them any performance indicators’ is in contradiction with ‘I’ve told them to cut crime’ in that I take the former as meaning a change from the micro-management of the previous government.
Where I think that you have an extremely valid point is in the measurement of what happens.
It is obvious that in order to see how well an organisation is doing then something must be measured and the change in that something over time looked at.
There are three problems with this. Firstly, management (in all organisations it seems) is very happy just to measure what is easy to measure rather than what is important (or most important).
In the case of the police, when looking at public trust and confidence in the police, then response time is easy to measure and to some degree is important but is nowhere nearly as important as the overall satisfaction of the MoP being responded to. (Here I am thinking of, say, a burglary when the criminal is long gone rather than an ongoing incident such as a fight).
Secondly, and you may well think this an extension of management’s simple-minded approach, measures are set as limits, e.g. If you respond in X minutes or less then that is good but X minutes and 1 second is bad. This is clearly nonsense.
A more realistic approach is to say that some high %age (80% perhaps) need to be within the expected value (I’m deliberately not calling that a target) and that the vast majority (95%? 98%?) need to be within, say, 1.5 times the expected value.
This accepts that occasionally things go completely pear shaped (e.g. an accident that blocks a dual-carriageway) and means that an expected value simply cannot be achieved.
Thirdly, and possibly most importantly, things are not measures over sensible time periods. People compare the figures from this year to those from last year and take any change in value to be meaningful.
In reality sometime things go completely pear shaped and sometimes they go really well. So a reduction in, say, violent crime from last year to this may be partly the result of your good work but it may also be partly that last year was a bad year and this year was a good year.
It is far more sensible to looking at rolling averages, so the figure for November 2011 is not the number that actually happened in that month but the average in the 36 (or 60 or whatever) months up to and including that month.
This would remove a lot of the random ups and downs and make it easier to see what the true trend is.
The problem with this sort of approach is, it seems to me, that politicians and senior police officers (CCs and people aspiring to that rank) are in a post for a relatively short time and so they want to show that after, say, 18 months of them being in place things have got better.
They can do that by simply comparing one year with another (and ignoring the things that have got worse) but they cannot if 36 month (or longer) rolling averages are used.
Jim
Hey Stainless!
You can prove anything with facts
Jim,
Wonderful idea except for the constant reorganisation of crime categories and geographical areas. They cleverly do this to make any meaningful understanding of change impossible.
‘They represent a desired direction of travel’
Study at Bramshill by any chance?
“We have scrapped police targets” means, er, we have scrapped police targets. If you haven’t, and you say you have, you are a liar.
Simple. No need for complex explanations.
IG,
No, I’ve never been to Bramshill, See my reply to GPC (2:06 pm today) for some clarification.
As for your second point, I sincerely hope you don’t really mean that.
If, for example, you heard someone describing a boxing match say “He absolutely murdered him” I am pretty sure that you would not start looking for a body.
What people say cannot be realistically taken in such a literal manner as you describe.
Jim
I liked reading some of the above posts RE all the other services passing the buck, (nobody has said it so i will, “but’s it not in our remit”)
But don’t forget guys (and girls… and Unknown’s) that we are our own worst enemys, we would all like to dump the crazy pissed person who no one else wants, back on the street. We would LOVE to tell Cindy runaway to jog on back to her own patch under her own steam rather than giving her a lft, or Mrs “but i love him” a ticket for wasting police time.
Hell I’d even like to remind the LAS that, “guys we go to this addess a few times a week, she’s never armed, the cut she has is no worse than the one you got shaving this morning and we all know her by F*&king name” so just crack on and talk her down as normal or go next door to where her mum lives so she can do it.
Or the LFB “sorry LFB people we passed it to you because it’s a gas canister next to a fire and we don’t know how to handle that” ……… Wat for it …….. “oh your too busy we’ll have a look then, let you know how it turns out.
We get it because we are so used to the shit hitting the fan and our puny selfs being sharfted that we crack on in the hopes that our own arse covering exercise won’t land us in the dock. WE DO IT TO OURSELVES
(the above and the fact that most of use really don’t want to see vunrable people being hurt and know that if we didn’t do all we could and they did get hurt we have to live with that, they don’t becasue most of them have passed it on already and couldn’t give a shit how it turns out.
Ok rant over, we still do it to ourselves though, make do and mend people.
I know how to cut drug crime because this is the way we did it in the 80′s. Close down any drug squads, particulaly if they are any good.
The net result is the so called ‘drug problem’ you had now goes away! Lies Lies and damn statistics however, will never go away.
^ Quite, still happening today Bill.
We’re always end up getting told to stop arranging drugs ops with dogs because when we do, it ends up causing a ‘spike’ in drugs offences in an area when we deprive x-amount of locals of their hard-earned ‘nabis and toot…
Likewise theft.
Last christmas special shoplifiting team formed to deal with shopliftings during December. Troops hit the streets, some in uniform and some in plain clothes. Loads of good results in shops all over town coming from plain clothes cops spotting offences. Boys and girls suitably chuffed at good results.
A few days later the order comes down from above for no more plain clothes patrols as these good results are pushing the shoplifting figures too high. Cue a few more yellow jackets wandering around the town, scrotes having to work a little but harder at their theiving but basically going on as before. And as many shopliftings happening and going unreported.
No concerns from bosses at all about the amount of crime actually happening, or god forbid trying to catch anyone, just as long as the figures look good.
You ARE the only people available to deal with mental health crisis at night and at weekends. I’m one of those people that the police have to deal with when I get distressed at night (especially at weekends) and whilst I really appreciate that the police are there to help me, I wish the mental health services would buck their ideas up and sort me out instead! I’ve got an ever growing criminal record AND an ASBO and it’s all because I have a personality disorder and get VERY little support from the mental health services. I’m not a criminal and I’m not a bad person but I am a pain in the arse to police, simply because they are the only ones available to pick up the pieces when I fall apart. So for what it’s worth…. thanks for being there!
Just thought you might appreciate a reply from a different perspective.
Thank you
Yes, Cheers. Have a stable Christmas
Hope you have a safe and happy christmas and thanks for your words.
Kay….
Almost brought a tear to my eye….much appreciated reply from a different perspective…
Unfortunately our only real power is to nick people and charge them. We struggle getting people in the local psych wards if they have had a drink or are remotely agitated … they end up in a police cell !
We end up going to loads of jobs escorting people to hospital where years ago Docs and Social Workers would have turned out to someones house and sorted matters out.
As other services retreat to 9-5 days and offices , we are the only ones out on the streets or in peoples houses and end up having to criminalise people as it is the only way to twist the arms of other organisations by getting the offender/subject before a court where other services are then forced to act.
Yeah, I got a mental health treatment order and 12 month supervision (probation) through the court and it STILL took 18 months to find me a CPN. She’s still with me about 6 years later, but I only see her for about 15 minutes about 3 times a year!!!!! Great help that is! Have to say my probation officer was fantastic, carried on seeing me voluntarily for the extra 6 months until I got my CPN. He held me together while I was waiting and saw me weekly for about 2 hours per session. What a star!
Problem is then, if I was struggling I’ll deliberately go do something that’ll give me a supervision order in court, ‘cos probation have helped me more than anyone. Police have effectively stamped that one out with the ASBO. It can be twisted that practically anything is a breach, spent last Crimbo on remand ‘cos of it! Determined to see this Xmas through…wish me luck!
All the best Kay
Spot on Kay. Best wishes to you for christmas now and for the future. You seem to have your screwed on okay and I hope you get the help you need.
In the UK, targets (and their associated graphs and speadsheets) are used as an alternative to actual leadership.
There is no leadership anymore – just management by email.
My old sweat Chief Supernintendo used to go around each and every nick every Christmas for every relief and hand out a tin of Quality Street or some other tin of sweets and say, “Thanks.” He saw everyone and everyone knew who he was and how to approach him. He retired.
My new Chief Super couldn’t even find the outer lying stations, wouldn’t know how many shifts there actually were let alone bother to get up early to visit each team during parade. I couldn’t, hand on heart, even tell you who he is.
A little goes a long way in this job. He can’t even spare us 5 minutes. Shame.
CF
Our old C/Supt, Bernie Wass had the habit of “walking” between the three stations on his sub. It was a bit disconcerting to see a flat hat with gold braid walking towards you as you bimbled about your beat. The reserve room would send a fictitious PAAOTCO allow message over the p/r when he was seen leaving the station. He was a wiley old fox and one day called the reserve saying to stand the officer down and he would do the PAAOTCO message! lots of crackling on the P/R.
Can you imagine the new breed, STREET?! WALK?!
He was a wiley old fox and one day called the reserve saying to stand the officer down and he would do the PAAOTCO message! lots of crackling on the P/R.
The sign of a true leader! Know your troops and their little japes. I bet Ch. Supt. Wass had a good laugh about that one.
Our chief super stops at RTCs and demands to know why officers are not wearing their hats. Priorities and all that.
Your perspective is much appreciated Kay.
I am afraid that when there is a situation involving mentally ill persons, the police are always (usually) the first point of contact. This has always been the way and always will be.
If you do not have the proper follow up procedures, then why don’t you press your management to make this public?
We don’t mind doing this, we just don’t like it being lied about and misrepresented.
For example, so-called Tim Collins “I want the police to be rat catchers not social workers”
Let’s face it, we’ll do anything really won’t we? Even stuff we don’t necessarily want to do. But like you say, misrepresentation is what really irks.
Targets are very difficult to determine and are based on the public’s views of what is reasonable for a service we rely on and pay for. Politicians act on behalf of the public and it is a sad reflection of the heirarchy of the police that targets are set centrally. Can you tell me how I tell the police what the local priorities are? Community Panels are a poor option and consultation whilst it takes place is a tick box exercise. So we are left with targets that do not fit the requirements of those enforcing them and that leave the public unhappy as well. Added to this the ego of some police management when they compare their performance to comparable forces. Not a good place to be.
I am sorry but being of mature years, leaving services paid by the taxpayer to the local boss has never worked. . I notice that the government relaxed targets for the NHS and this was an absysmal failure. When we compare so unfavourably with European Neighbours on life threatening conditions, the government had to set targets. All organisations need to measure performance. If a private sector CEO fails to perform he is held to task by shareholders and ousted. If a Chief Constable fails to perform – what happens? The question for me is how to measure the tasks you mentioned such as dealing with individuals who are not involved in crime but who are in need of protection? There is a danger of course that you see yourselves as being the only agency dealing with society’s misfits. Psychiatric Hospital staff complain of having people dumped on them. Probation Officers complain about having to deal with housing etc. Regrettably being a 24 hour service then the police will always have to deal with those in need of protection. Why not use this as an argument when setting priorities or at least permitting a proportion of ones time to dealing with such activities? What are your priorities? I often remain very confused about all the activities that you undertake. Sometimes i think that PR – attending a huge number of meetings including joint working arrangements with various agencies, schools, council meetings, etc etc are more important than solving or protecting us from criminals? A perception that perhaps I need persuading is not reality. It astonishes me the number of PR people employed by even small county forces and the number of management posts. I read recently a report which stated that whilst police budgets soared from 2000 to 2009, the majority of the money was spent on additional management posts. I also read that so much of your paperwork is set by local management and not central targets which we have all been led to believe.
Finally, thanks to many televised police programmes I do think the public have a better idea of what the police do. From Soho to Lincolnshire the job is so varied and responses differ so there must be an element of localism present even if I do not know about it. Further, it is incumbent upon Homes Secretaries and Police Ministers to justify what the police do, how well they are doing it. They are like the Shareholders – they have to do it. Sorry, I do not trust police management. We pay Chief Constables a lot of money and there are good and bad people in post. All jobs have oversight. We permit the police to have huge powers over citizens and it is even more important that oversight exists and is enforced. Targets go some way to undertaking this in a democratic society.
Targets are difficult to determine? What the fk?
There should be NO targets!
The police is an emergency response service! What the hell has targets got to do with whether the police are needed in their droves?
The police should not be a body that operates on itself or it will be like the Al Capones of the past, however, it should also not be answerable to the government as no one trusts them either.
Yes, Cheif Constables are paid a lot of money. Too much. ‘Targets go some way to undertaking this in a democratic society’.
Are you for real? POLICE DON’T DO TARGETS! THEY DO POLICING!!
\\ Finally, thanks to many televised police programmes I do think the public have a better idea of what the police do. \\
Err, no.
Thanks to the plethora of shows the public have *almost no idea* of what we actually do.
Constant obs on a sleeping prisoner for 8 hours sitting in the doorway of a cell does not make for good viewing.
Yeah, Cops With Cameras is so-o-o-o-o spot on. All I ever do is push drunks away from the back of my van, on a late shift.
Were the days when police were” accountable to the law and nothing but the law” so bad?
As a PC I once found myself at a local seminar where local targets were to be set. Multi agency. We went through the “what do you think are local issues” challenge and came up with a sensible, local based list of priorities. We were then told that what we had come up with was good, but we had to (yes, HAD TO) include a target for reducing gun crime, because it was a home office priority. There was so little gun crime in the area that nobody had even considered it as an option.
So basically we could set any targets we liked, as long as the Home Office agreed that it was a “local” priority!
So – Imelda lies – she is a politician and a tory one at that – what’s new?
JBD’G seems to be saying she’s not really lying, just blue-sky thinking and waffling to members of her own party. Like there’s no cameras, no reporters, and it won’t be on the six o’clock news.
Well Imelda, it looks like a promise, and it sounds like a promise, so us MoPs will hold you to it.
Gadget….i admire your resilience…If they haven’t got it by now..they never will…politicians are like victims of DV ..it doesn’t matter how many times you tell them the truth…they continue to bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem goes away…how sad..never mind.
politicians are like victims of DV
or
like DV offenders, hit you then say sorry, I didn’t mean it blah blah
@james bolivar digriz,
You may be on to something. We are not allowed rhetoric when giving evidence, senior officers are allowed it.
Grass roots like us take people at face value. We also take statements at face value, statements made by Home Sec. do not tally up with reality for us.
ACPO and Home Sec’s etc need to make it clear to us when they are talking ‘fact’ or ‘rhetoric’. We can then assess better before telling them to go in ‘a desired direction of travel’.
LoveontheRocks ….james bolivar digriz is indeed correct and obviously educated and switched on to issues…
But I took smiled at “a desired direction of travel”….
Bit of boss speak…
When I joined the job my force was sited in the North West of England and dealt with crime and disorder and welfare issues – a sort of social catch all….
Now … 20 years later my force is still in the same place and does exactly the same job….
I don’t think we have travelled anywhere !! We have stood still….perhaps even gone back a step or two judging by the numbers now on the street….
I just wish the business parlance could be dropped…..our force are not about (at least not yet) to bid and overtake the policing of Derbyshire or West Yorks…. we are not about to set up a Sydney Office (although I would volunteer to go and establish an Antipodean base)…We are not seeking to expand globally and compete against others … like Subway or Coca-Cola…
If true business practices were put into place a large number of bosses and trench-dodgers would be disposed of, a large number of internal bureaucratic process would have been massively streamlined and the cops on the street would have been provided with tasers, pnc blackberrys and other tools to do the job.
We seem however to drift on with the worst parts of public sector working and denied the best parts of private sector working !
GPC,
I apologise most humbly for indulging in ‘boss speak’. I am a MoP and have never been a police officer so it must have juts slipped out by mistake!
All I meant is that things don’t change overnight. The last government had an attitude of micro-managing & targets for everything, hence the CCs appointed during their time in office will have reflected that. Similarly such CCs will have appointed micro-managing & target obsessed SMTs.
Even if the Home Office was genuinely to remove all today some CCs & SMTs would not follow suit.
Whilst some members of SMTs could be simply removed without any negative impact on the force, if all CCs & SMTs were removed today there would be (at least I certainly hope there would be!) a negative effect.
So it will be time before all CCs & SMTs are less micro-managing & target obsessed.
Jim
I had a very memorable job once when i forced entry into an old dears house to find her fallen on the floor unable to get up. Conscious and breathing and very cantakerous! She had no family nearby, lived as a recluse and was fiercely independant.
The ambulance arrived a short while lated and diagnosed the lady with a broken hip.
She refused to go with the ambulance to the hospital. The ambulance crew spent about 5 minutes there and realised that she wasnt going to go with them, duly cleared off.
What to do??? No-one could force her into that ambulance. She was admanent she didnt want to leave her house. I rang all the people i could find in her address book. She had one son who lived over 3 hours away. Her local GP wouldnt come out.
Control were telling me to clear and leave… but how could i leave a little old lady with a broken hip lying on the floor?? Leave her to die?
It was a disgrace. No-one was prepared to help.. it wasnt a police problem, but it wasnt anyone elses either.
The result was i stayed with her for three hours until her son eventually arrived. I was told she later agreed to hospital treatement the next day.
I find it incredible that control told you to leave. Bless you for having a good heart.
‘how much of everything else they say is rubbish as well? Defence? Education? Health? maybe, gulp, the economy?’
How about the EU and Dave’s ‘veto’? Fourteen years of NuLabour and a 40 year slow motion coup d’etat from Europe, aided by ignorant or deliberately traitorous politicians and civil servants has led to this state of affairs.
Bear that in mind when reading the papers as well!
Non custodial sentences? Like the “Dundee Two” getting 4 years for writing “Let’s have a riot” on FB? Meanwhile child molester Sgt Darren Dearling gets a suspended sentence. Methinks a Blakelock moment is coming, heads on sticks!
Did someone mistakenly order an obnoxious half-witted troll for Christmas? If so, it has arrived early.
I think someone made the wrong bid on ebay
Ooh matron!
Surely ex DCI if you ever made that rank in the Met Derek H! Where is your link to the non-custodial Dearling received as his sentencing was last fri 16th Dec.
Just asking.
I see Mr Haslam has suffered a self-inflicted promotion
[The only other 'person' I know of who awarded themselves a "VC" was Idi Amin ]
It was the African VC get it right! Kim Jong Il dead. If Thatcher follows my joy is complete. Die mutha fucka die!!
And that, my lord, is the case for the defence….
Molesting Children eh ???
You would know all about that that and you’re dead jealous aren’t you FUCKWIT !!
Everyone hates us unti they need us.!.
Including this prick.!.
ron/ciaran/derek, I didn’t realise you were so thick that you thought the police were involved in sentencing.
Still while you are busy putting heads on poles perhaps you could tell us what you have ever actually done to catch a paedophile (since that seems to be one of your little obsessions).
Dear TangO, Isn’t it funny that when Derek G Haslam was reported to his ex employers The Met they did nothing to apprehend him. So…possession of kiddy porn is only illegal if one is a tax payer? Finally, to the cretin who said “Everyone hates us until they need us” working class ghettoes are devoid of police patrols You are gutless scum who will get a very Tahrir Square Xmas!
You are quite, quite mad. Random bleating about an IP address used to allegedly download child porn is an utterly puerile and evidentially unsound allegation.
Like most of your comments it’s on a par with shouting abuse in a school playground and then crying because teacher didn’t believe you.
I blame a spoilt upbringing, an overdeveloped sense of your own importance and entitlement and the anonymity of the internet.
Still the closest I’m ever likely to get to you in real life is when I’m 136′ing you when you dribble like this in public.
Beshanivsky? Well, make mine a treble.
Dearie me troll boy – can’t even spell -that’s Beshenivsky please.
Maybe one day you will be able to produce your very own example of heroism, though unfortunately you will probably have to leave mummy’s house by yourself to do that.
Back to your little troll life, ranting at the big boys on the interweb. One day you might amount to something in real life, but until then I guess we have to put up with your bleating on the world wide web.
Never has there been a better example of empty vessels making loud and hollow noises.
You know, I don’t mind a few targets. Loose ones,0 just a few, that give a flavour of how a person or team are performing to those that need to know. Is is so bad that the Ch Supt knows that 1 relief are nicking three times as many for public order than the other four teams put together? That four PC’s on 3 relief haven’t done a single stop/search in a month?
But the reasons for knowing have to be right, and the understanding of why these facts are what they are has to be understood. It may be that there’s a skipper on 1 relief who’s a gung-ho nutter and drags his team into fights every day, or it might be that the teams just happened to be on when there were a couple of major disturbances.
It may be that there’s a culture of laziness amongst a small group on 3 relief that the Insp needs to deal with. Or those PC’s might all have been injured by a knife-wielding lunatic and some are off sick and the others on restricted. Or they’ve been doing gaoler and front office.
Tables and stats are useful, but only when understood and used correctly. When some fool uses them as a weapon to beat up each team, borough, Division, Force, whatever, they have lost their meaning and make the wielder of the tool look like an ignorant bully.
Loose, informal, local targets. They help. Rigid, enforced, unrealistic and, worst of all, massaged targets have no place nor function in management.
Agreed. My inspector has targets he expects us to reach. If you don’t meet them, you email him and explain. If you have a good reason (I was recently on leave for three weeks, then caught a load of aid and duff postings when I got back) then there isn’t an issue. If you have two or three dry months with no obvious excuse you get called into The Office and read your fortune – while being offered support/tutoring as necessary. If you fail to improve, you can’t say you weren’t warned….!
However, we are seeing a doubling and tripling of external (SMT) interference; arbitrary team targets for stop and search (based on the performance of the team with the most complaints for stop and search!), targets for MDT usage (difficult on a busy borough when you accept more than one CAD at a time, and even more so on the new system where you can’t set your status on CADs you are assigned to while logged off), targets for copying information from a portal into CRIS, targets for charter times, etc etc.
Of course, when you get various teams snaffling tasty jobs off you when all the work’s done because it suddenly “falls in their remit” and vice versa with smelly jobs, it doesn’t help.
Nor does pressure to lock up for S.5 instead of D&D because it gets a detection, followed by agro from a different Insp saying “Who the fook keeps locking up for S.5 when they’re obviously D&D? You lot are screwing my figures up for this month!”
“various teams” – don’t! I hate them. They are all an excuse to chase targets and are staffed by people who don’t want to do front-line work. get rid of all the burglary, robbery, hate crime, prisoner handling, schools, SNT, etc etc etc and make everyone part of one big team. The biggest benefit will be that officers will not get de-skilled from lack of experience in other fields, young PC’s will learn, teams will be huge so morale will rise, the public will love to see more of us, the Police Authority will get their public satisfaction target and you know what? all those targets the SMT and ACPO fret about will be hit way beyond their wildest, wettest dreams.
Agreed we need some targets on a local level, even if its a sergeant with a spreadsheet.
We have an arrest book, and working through it, I had double some people for the year. And im not overly polific, I don’t lock up for shit.
The sarge never raises the issues, which pissed me off no end
Not attempting to troll, but do you know for certain that these target and KPI’s came from the Home Secretary or even the Home Office?
What if, just saying, that Theresa May has actually abolished targets but your senior management have decided not to? And rather than complain about her for something that may not be her doing, why not email it to her so she can see that you’re still getting them and see what she does about it?
And if it turns out to have been her of the HO, well then you’re right and justified in complaining about it…
That obviously should have said “her OR the HO”…
If you look back a year or so on this site, you’ll find that people have done exactly that – as well as emailed their MPs, drawn attention to this site, etc. Theresa May isn’t actually interested in anything she talks about, except where it directly benefits a Ms T May. Hence her knowing lies about targets, her knowing lies about cancelling police leave, and her knowing lies about valuing and respecting the police – or even the electorate!
Erm try googling it and you may find numerous references like this….
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/theresa-may-axes-police-performance-targets-2013288.html
And if you want to read more blocks from Imelda try this…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13434166
Oh and the silent treatment received after her speech at the Polfed conference in June.
They are still collated and presented via a web portal at the Home Office. So the HO definitely knows they still exist.
Fair enough, I therefore concede my point.
I had a job where little old lady collapsed in her house. Forced entry. She was lying on floor conscious and breathing. Ambulance arrived and diagnosed a broken hip. Little old lady extremely independant and stubborn. Refused to go in ambulance so ambulance cleared off within 5 minutes. Little old lady lived as a reculse with no friends and no family nearby. What to do? Control told me to clear and leave her there.
I didnt leave her; but it took several hours to resolve. Not a police matter, but the ambo were happy to clear off and leave me with the problem.
(sorry if this appears twice. I seem lost in a spam filter)
test
Any idea why the government is so desperate to reform the police and wants it all done by next year, pay, pensions, promotions, professional standards, working conditions, strength, everything…. yet is leaving the banks alone until 2019?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075816/Banks-split-Cable-confirms–reforms-wont-kick-2019.html
We are being torn asunder with appalling haste. I really do wonder why the government hates us so much.
The Olympics! This Is the reason, plus they know they will never have a better chance than this. They sense we are finished, and need to strike now’
My Fed. Rep. Told me they want it all in place before then, to save them a fortune!
Because none of their school & university friends work in the Police?
Beacuse they only have one term before they are kicked out – the problem is the ammount of damage they can inflict before then.
constable Haslam, Look at wikipedia, Blakelocks head was far from seathered ,he got up and ran a few feet before collapsing, AFTER The attack,
Regaridng that Moment as you put it, Look at what happened after the farm riot, the tories were 2 points ahead of Labour A week before the 1987 election then they had A party political broadcast that quoted bernie grant’s Famous “bloddy good hiding commetn2 and the Tories then went 13 points ahead in the Polls, won the Election adn Introduced the Poll tax, the NHs reforms Death on the Rock of Gibraltor and Homelessness was Socially acceptable in Carboard city, there was a 17 month police prescence on the Farm with 5000 police A day, during which there was A climate of Fear,several Kids were taken at gun point to custody, not given access to Solicitors and held for days, with confessions taken, the Sun and the Daily mail (now the most Anti the police newspaper )suggested sending the Army in, the Daily star had a racist headline they were lucky they weren’t proecuted for, and during the 17 month police prescence White britain turned their backs on the kids on the estate and there’s not even A M.P Like bernie grant to take the rioters side now.
Ron Broxted with spelling like that you have got to the famous John Reid below.
There’s more than one Ron Broxted, Is John Reid Imfamous, He mucked up every department he had in Government, regarding Blakelocks death, it was said in the Who killed Blakelock documentary, that he got up and ran a few steps after the rioters dispersed, Which maybe possible after A beheading ,but Ihaven’t seen it myself
Ron, why do you have a different IP address from, er, Ron? If it was in “Wiki” it must be true! I interviewed both sides at the Farm and each said that plod was beheaded. Apres moi le deluge.
I know of One Black fella who was On thee rioters side at BWFR and He joined the police after the Riot and he worked with Gordon Milne one of the coppers who was with Blakelcok when he was murdered, A mate of Mine Micheal Morrsion was In A rap group Double trouble who use to rehearse on the farm around then, His firend Micheal Menson was killed by some white men, setting him on fire,the police originally put it down as sucide and A few Years later he becasme A PCSO, he was even pro the polce back in the 90′s!
enter
Oh Inspector, we teach the children of thosse of whom you speak. We don’t mind teaching them any more than you mind banging them up but we’d rather not be judged on the same set of results!
I should be cutting crime then….
So I should have ignored the young lady slumped outside a bar at 1am this morning covered in her own vomit, rather than putting her in the recovery position calling an ambulance then having to lift her onto the stretcher so she could be taken to hospital, then having to spend the rest of my shift on foot patrol with sick stains on my trousers. No crime cutting there Mrs May…
Nurse the badger ointment and rub in on liberally…
nice buttons though?
I’m currently on a career break from the job, and therefore have no income. As a result, it can get a little tricky money-wise and there are times – particularly when I can’t afford my cigars and kebabs – when it’s downright depressing.
Then I come on this blog, read for ten minutes, and go away thinking it’s the best decision I ever made.
Anyways, hope you all have a great – and Q – Christmas/New Year.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Article/201112316132966
No doubt they will get off lightly due to being non Uk nationals / difficult childhood / drug addicts etc.
Pocket notebook boy!
Just finished your book! Brilliant more to come I hope. Hope your enjoying the C/B.
Just finishing up the next one. Or ‘That Bastard’, as I call it.
Yeah enjoying the break. I especially enjoy spending most of my time sitting in my pants and drinking cheap wine. Life’s too good!
ah sounds bliss, aids creative thinking I am sure. Have you read the Charlie Owen books? The Horses arse and so on- Brilliant reading especially in pants!
Read a couple. Very good. I’ve heard he writes them naked. Sweet.
I’ve read all four of the books and have never laughed so much. For anyone with a dark sense of humour I recommend reading them.
Grinding though all,picking up the aftermath of people and trying to put it all back together…….You Are Still The Best Police Force. Have,at least,a Quiet and Merry Christmas with your loved ones. Oh,could PC Fry have a go at winging a five stone chuck of concrete at the “poorly brought-up lad” who winged him? Just askin’…….
We never use the ‘Q’ word, Gerald (bit of a superstition), but cheers and same to you.
I won’t bring up ‘Q’ again,Sir,and thank you…….Cheers and BE CAREFULL OUT THERE…….
My farce now e mail me the performance figures every day.!. Every time I turn on a computer in work I have these bullshit performance clocks that pop up on the screen. Performance indicators have never been more in your face than they are now.!.
Ahhhh…. performance dials.
Takes me back to the second last time we reorganised the way we police things in Ruralshire (about a year ago).
Surely! Please one time let me be myself.
I can shine.
Let me be myself.
For a while.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16237077
Oh right another thing we have done wrong, pop it on the list with the others.
ACPO cannot sit around and take this forever surely? I know most of them are frightened of speaking out (ruining promotion and all that) but come on, I spent some time in gold during the disorder and thought I was about to witness some ACPO members have a heart attack – there was very little more that could be done at the time.
“If numbers could have been increased more rapidly, it is possible that some of the disturbances could have been avoided,” it said.
Right, OK well I will just get someone working on a machine that just replicates L2 PO trained officers shall I…they don’t grow on trees, most of NPT are not been given courses and have run out of ticket – about 80% of response have but that does not go as far as it sounds! I know most if not all PO trained officers on my patch were deployed, I’m not sure what else could be done.
The Guardian has another slant on the same story. Thing is, no-one in the Met wants to become ‘Public Order’ trained and as the committee don’t see the need for any more powers, why would anyone volunteer? The ‘Tomlinson’ scenario hasn’t gone away!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/19/mps-oppose-met-police-water-cannon?newsfeed=true
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075916/The-state-ceased-exist–Damning-verdict-police-tactics-summer-riots.html?ITO=1490
Ho-hum
Apparently it was all our fault because our glorious leaders were constrained by ACPO manuals and couldn’t make decisions.
Also, more coppers on streets quelled disorder and prevented crime.
Well I have to say that I am stunned. What a surprise.
Some choice quotes from the report:
The priority must be to ensure that the police are able to respond intelligently and that they have the flexibility and resilience to respond to any circumstances that arise in the future.
Training and advice on public order policing should be provided, but there should be more discretion for local forces and commanders, and officers on the front line, to respond to individual situations of public disorder in the way that they think best, instead of an expectation that the answers will be contained in the guidance manual.
local commanders should have the discretion, and the necessary training, to make their own assessment of the situation and of what tactics to deploy, rather than rely on the guidance manual.
What ultimately worked in quelling the disorder was increasing the number of police officers on duty and flooding the streets with police.
A strong police presence should also have a deterrent effect
That’s what is so amusing about the condems – they are so clueless about how things really work that they think it is a good idea to decrease police numbers during a recession with high unemployment.
Perhaps there should be an ACPO manual on deleting unnecessary policies?
And I’m wondering how losing perhaps 20,000 coppers will contribute to implementing the solutions suggested?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075916/London-riots-2011-The-state-ceased-exist-Damning-verdict-police-tactics-summer-riots.html?ITO=1490
For once I am backing the Police on this one. Dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t.
In my opinion most of this was “caused” by the state, not a lack of it. 13 years of Labour and its micro managing of society with manipulation and social engineering, Often fortified Marxist style family destroying agendas in order to create more chaos to then have an excuse to bring in yet more clandestine law.
I have copied the full header/post of this topic and emailed it to my MP (Damian Collins). I have pointed out that many others have done similarly with no REAL response whatsoever and asked for his views/comments.
I won’t hold my breath.
TAngo ,Cirian/haslam wnats more cops heads on poles ,after Peadophile charge for a Police officer, well as Gerry addams brother is up for the saem, Maybe cirain/Haslam wants more bloody sundays?
Nah John, I did my stint in Norn Iron 1989-94. You?
nah i was at school
A five year tour I don`t think so.
“The public get what the Public Want” now they have got it, they don`t Wan`t it. If the whole populace experienced the breakdown of civilisation that occurs during a riot I am sure they would have a different opinion on law and order for the rest of there lives.I remember standing Outside LD in Brixton in 1985 when the whole place appeared to be on fire and every offence under the sun was happening in front of my eyes. My brain unable to comprehend what was happening my first thought was somebody better call the Police, then I had a reality check, we are the feckin Police.At least in them days the Mets main priority was Public Order with Kenneth Newman at the helm and virtually everybody shield trained and with decent experienced commanders On L district, the Police dealt with it “Robustly”, however one week later I experienced the complete opposite with a chicken arse commander who was the forerunner for the spineless ACPO ranks that have manifested themselves over the past twenty five years. Its bad enough dealing with all the shit thats before you but its the attack from the rear (ACPO & MPs) that’s the most dangerous. having experienced bad leadership in a Riot that lead to the murder of a colleague I can only despair at what it must be like for those that have to deal with such events now, when finding a boss with bollocks is harder than sourcing rocking horse shit.
If you watch news footage of those events over a quarter of a century ago MPs were playing an almost identical blame game then. Keith Vaz has taken over where Gerald Kaufman left off. I`m afraid its going to get much worse before it gets any better. Good Luck.
I’m going underground
What down in the Tubestation? At what time?
I’ts going to be late…
You want to be careful around Midnight, Don`t forget the takeaway for your wife.
Lots of dubious types – just out of the scrubs and fresh fromtheir BNP meetings
what chance have we got against a tie and a crest?
I’ve heard there’s a row going on down near a town near WIndsor, so I’m supping up me beer sharpish
That will be those chappies from Eton with their rifles.
The BBC are all over this one as well.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16237077
However, givent hat the committee is chaired by the corrupt friend to terrorists Kitih Vaz its difficult to take seriously. No m,ention made of the large criminal element who started the riots nor an condemnation of the utter failings of so called ‘community leaders’ in Tottenham et al.
Anyhow, Kieth Vaz. Just google ‘Keith Vaz corruption’ and see what comes up. The Daily Mail certainly don’t like him…..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162213/Keith-Vaz-damning-letter-How-senior-Labour-MP-abused-position-help-crooked-lawyer-court.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1262589/Keith-Vaz-The-truth-crooked-lawyer-Labour-MP-tries-charge-crucial-committee.html
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/02/kirsty-wark-boris-exposes-keith-vazs.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2015842/Why-Keith-Vaz-makes-unlikely-moral-crusader.html
But if Forces only have 50/50% ratio of officers to civilian staff then there are less staff to respond to these situations.
For PSU call outs we are struggling to put a serial together on weekly leave and that never happened years ago, and there was no recession then.
Slightly off topic, but Keith vaz now wants rapid improvements in riot training for police. Wasn’t it him that said around the time of the student protests that we shouldn’t focus on worst case riot training, and should be trained in more low key tactics…?
It’s times like this that I’m glad I decided to abandon my progress to the upper ranks and remain a sergeant. At least I can make a decision.
Pot and Kettle news…
“The policing operation to tackle the summer riots across England was flawed, a report from MPs has concluded.
The perception that in some areas police had lost control of the streets was the most important reason disorder spread, they said.”
Of course MPs know what is happening on the streets don’t they ?
Of course lack of funding and therefore recruitment and training caused by politics had nothing to do with it. The politics that make it wrong for us to use things like water cannon and TASER equally nothing to do with it. Its very easy for the likes of Vaz to point the finger of blame at the man in the arena.
He is talking rubbish, I believe we are trained to a very high standard in PSU tactics. I have done it for 15 years and we know what we are doing but a lot of the tactics are getting watered down, preventing us from doing our job properly.
I believe the start of the decline was when the government introduced PCSOs, a two tier system. Public order tickets were issued instead of going to court, Restorative Justice (RJ) issued instead of arresting someone and still getting a detected crime. Courts giving community hours and fines to everyone but they don’t complete them or pay the fines.
This is all part of the decline in standards. Lets have One Uniform on the Streets with robust action taken against the problem makers and standards will improve.
As always, IG and most others are right. Unfortunately its a shame that this blog doesn’t get greater coverage or read by those in power ( not that it would make a difference ).
Going to a phrase further up by respected shafted the phrase should be “The public gets want the politicians want “. The average joe wants tougher sentencing, better laws and an end to to the ‘i can survive on benefits culture till i die’.
I am a firm believer in change, just not sure when it will go in our favour. The time of the liberal lefty human rights idiot is hopefully over in 2012, when the social welfare system ends with the mayan predictions. ( i pick mayan cult leader on my diversity box to avoid doing work for what is required by 2013 – This is my end reducing paperwork initiative ).
ps…..Happy Christmas.
I don’t care what society wants…..
Diversity refresher for you my son !
There is no society – just families
Coming from the financial side I can assure you that MP’s are equally full of shit on this topic also.
Classic example was the whole farce around executive/bankers pay.
The Board of Directors are the shareholders representatives in any company, and are supposed to stop the management from abusing their positions. So any commentator who didn’t use the words “Board of Directors” in the first two sentences of any discussion on pay packages could be immediately identified and ignored as a dribbling windbag.
At the end of the day an MP’s only qualifications are the ability to tell people what they want to hear.
And as the Greeks are finding out “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (Tytler)
The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.”
Maybe the Mets could get a recently retired frontline PC/Sgt/Insp to stand as an Independent MP on a Law and Order ticket or even as the Law and Order Party in a London bye election and get a sort of Met bloc vote in that area.
As the Tories are no longer the Law’n'Order party together with the Libs/Lab have caused most of the current policing problems maybe a fresh face could really stir up their little political gravy train.
This could end up with Gadget for PM!!!!
Now there’s a thought!
Problem is most of us don’t live here.
It doesn’t seem to matter these days with postal voting and such..:)
Anyone know when the new Gadget book is available?
Amazon states ‘temporarily out of stock’ …….. but there are no reviews ……. I take it therefore that it’s not being released yet??
Anyone got a release date …. I believe some of my examples are in it!
Monday Books can let you know the score on this one. It’s a PC David Copperfield book with some help from me.
All recieved I’ll badger and annoy him.
Cheers Sir
You plods need to improve your english grammar.
We can add this to list of things to do, just after suck my whistle.
Toby…
English should have a capital letter – as should Toby
Hear hear! And there was no need to specify English grammar. Grammar alone would have sufficed.
Leave my grammar out of this. And my grandad.
Are you asking for a drum kit this yuletide?
Re; Keith Vaz and his ‘report’.
\\
“What ultimately worked in quelling the disorder was increasing the number of police officers on duty and flooding the streets with police.
“If numbers could have been increased more rapidly, it is possible that some of the disturbances could have been avoided.
“We regret that this did not happen and, with the benefit of hindsight, we regard the operation to police the disorder in many towns and cities, and particularly in London, as flawed.
“In future, in the event of similar disorder, the focus should be on increasing the number of officers on the streets as quickly as possible.”
\\
So – How about “Vaz for Commissioner” – and leaving it to HIM to ensure there are enough Coppers next time?
‘In future, in the event of similar disorder, the focus should be on increasing the number of officers on the streets as quickly as possible’
yes. after they have cut my wages and stolen my pension, my phone at home might just ring and ring and ring……….
mjoilinr, and if there aren’t enough police and one gets killed Like Blakelock that Vaz faces a corporate masnlaughter charge.
@John Reid – That WAS in my mind.
You will note that Keith vaz, the corrupt MP of Leceister, was the chair of this committee damning the police.
Just a look at his wiki page will give you a sense of his personality and corrupt dealings. He has on numerous occasions attacked the police, including making false allegations against a retired Leciestershire officer which led to his suspension from the house of commons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Vaz
Of all the MPs in parliament to chair a committee on the causes of the riots this corrupt and mendacious individual with a history of antipathy towards the police is chosen.
Was he and his committee ever likely to point the finger at the real causes? Thirteen years of utter failure by the Labour Govenrment of which VaZ was a part? A sotf judiciary firghtened to jail criminals? the riotous scum themselves?
Or was the committee more of a kangaroo court serving up the ‘obvious’ target?
Also, just google ‘keith vaz corruption’ and see what comes up…..
Let’s be frank……police leave was not cancelled soon enough. End of.
Now ‘why’ is another matter, but I can’t help but feel that some ‘managers’ ( I refuse to call them policemen) were probably more concerned with managing their newly reduced budgets.
Has anyone dared to put a price on the police overtime wages bill for the riot period yet?
Now the slow responce of the police to the riots is hardly the fault of the rank and file police officers….it rests squarely with the most senior ranks. End of again.
As for Imelda cancelling police leave…..she didn’t, even if she says she did…it’s not within her powers as Home Secretary. But if she wants to take the blame…….let her.
Bill.
No one should take a blind bit of notice about what MPs say caused the riots.
It is in their interests to make sure that no one looks at the social and economic situation, the lack of consequences, the entitlement culture and 3rd generation immigration unemployment because……. those thing are all THEIR responsibility.
No decent member of the public buys this crap, as I am told every day when chatting to people.
You’d be surprised in some cases. I have spoken to intelligent people who have said “the cops looked frightened” after seeing the “Tomlinsonphobic” riot cops holding the line and refusing to (in many cases but not all) deal judiciously with the violence and looting.
They didn’t seem to know why the police were behaving like this and were quite surprised when I told them.
First to be last!
if the things they say about criminal justice and policing are such nonsense, which I know they are because I am’ living the dream’ so to speak, how much of everything else they say is rubbish as well?
Thanks for the name check Boss
I totally agree with what you say about May and Herbert. Every time they open their mouth’s I am amazed at the lack of knowledge and understanding that they demonstrate of the realities of policing.
I would just love to take them both out for a whole set, including weekend late or night turns, without their armed protection officers, so they can see for themselves what response policing actually involves.
I think they’d be surprised.
“how much of everything else they say is rubbish as well?….”
A very great deal from most of them, I would say from experience. I heard an MP whose “special subject” was supposed to be closely related to my day job. After an oilfield incident which cost a life, this clown was holding forth on TV and spouting the most erroneous drivel that I nearly threw a brick through the TV to shut him up. Likewise an MP for constituency near Heathrow jumped upon the “noisy aeroplanes BAD” bandwagon and said he would talk to NATS and make them fly the planes from west and east alternately 50% each way to spread the noise burden evenly……I didn’t waste my time writing to educate him in flying basics…..land/take off into wind and NATS does not control the wind!
Waste of space and our taxes, most of them
I think most people would agree that if the courts did their jobs properly and handed out long, custodial sentences, then crime would be reduced accordingly.
I find it a disgusting state of affairs when we can have thugs and thieves with multiple convictions still walking the streets.
I would never blame the police for this. You guys pick them up, it’s not up to you to lock them up too. That’s down to the bloke with the fancy wig.
I’m not sure where I stand on the elected commissioner’s thing, but I really think that judges should be elected and forced to face their shortcomings at the ballot box. We might see some sensible judgement them.
Agreed, which is why it’s both a blessing and a shame that it took the riots for the courts to find their balls.
Unfortunately, they very quickly mislaid them again…