In a new ’shock horror’ gun crime scandal, the Liverpool Chief Constable has outrageously suggested that judges may not be sentencing criminals appropriately!
Bernard Hogan-Howe feels that simply because the mandatory sentence for possessing an illegal firearm is five years, the judges should be sentencing criminals found guilty of possessing an illegal firearm……. to five years.
The poor fool. Does he not understand how the criminal justice system works?
Every time I give examples of seemingly foolish sentencing decisions, I receive comments from the legal brigade saying that Judges and Magistrates are bound by sentencing guidelines.
Would those be the same guidelines which demand a mandatory minimum five year sentence for firearms possession?
Here in Ruralshire we have three types of supposedly armed criminal.
Type 1. The ‘Domesticated Gypsy’ Poaching Youth kind (with an air gun).
Type 2. The mentally deranged kind (with a replica gun).
Type 3. The armed Blagger from Metro City (with Metro Police hot on their tails).
The vast majority of arrests for firearms offences follow Type 1 & 2 incidents. Even I would argue that five years inside is harsh for a spot of pigeon shooting. It is certainly not the way to treat people with mental health problems.
The Homeboys from the Mersey would never come to Ruralshire with their ‘pieces’. There are no Bitches, Bling or Bentley’s in Ruraltown. Only the Balkan gangs. They dress like 1970’s shop window dummies and can produce a Kalashnikov if required.
I remember a few years back when our so-called ‘top’ drug dealer was visited in his Council flat by a couple of Jamaican nutters from Metro City. They forced him to kneel down a put a shotgun to his head. He literally had a stroke with fear. That’s how tough he was.
As for the Chief and his views on lax sentencing: welcome to our world.
Next he will be suggesting proper sentences for Burglars and Muggers! Keep it here!
he might be listened to , if he’s not knocking off the typing pool, or the latest batch of probationers . or a community contact .
I’m sure the PSD of that force ask that intergrity is non negotibale .
Good for the Chief Con I thought. At least he is attempting to shame the judiciary into following the guidelines. Then I thought what about Goodyear hearings. Surely he knows about Goodyear hearings. Hmmm. Ain’t politics great. Somebody with a gun problem takes the big risk of judge bashing. What’s the real story?
Barrister: “Would your Scrumptiousness care to give an indication on sentence for a guilty plea? Obviously it is in the public interest to avoid a long and costly trial, but of course it is my client’s right to insist on one.”
HHJ Cocklecarrot: “Your a cheeky boy for asking but OK you’ve twisted my arm, 3 years for a guilty plea on the facts alleged.”
Later
Defence Solicitor: “Lenny, you’re a lucky lucky boy. The forces of law have you bang to rights but if you throw your hand in against the very persuasive evidence, its 3 years with big remission. Take it to the mat and its 5 years no time off”
Lenny: “Cheers, three with remission and remand time, that’s nearly a walk out. Nice one”
It goes on every day, every single day, the courts would grind to a halt without it because on the quiet, not only are there not enough prisons but there aren’t enough courts or judges either.
http://nightjack.wordpress.com/
Words just fail - I recently spent four hours updating an objection to bail form for someone who had breached their bail cons more than 40 times in last twelve months - failed to appear 14 times in last two years and was on bail for seven other matters concurrently - kept in custody by our custody dept (for a change) but yet again bailed from court…i actually placed every breach in detail on the form as my section were totally p1ssed off re this
after 20 years i am beginning to wonder why i bother…
regards - an inspector that still cares what his/her boys n girls do and think - but wouldnt dream of giving any more info in case our PSD are watching this space and could ID me !!!
I did laugh at that headline, not because of the CC, but the fact that this sort of thing goes on everyday at every court in the land. It is very old news to most of us cops.
I think he is right to bring the subject up. How often do you hear a member of the public blaming the Police for sentencing ?
Let’s blame the Judges for not doing what they are supposed to do.
Anyone of you seen the Ray Liotta film, I think it was called ‘No escape’. Society put all its scumbags on one island and left them to it.
Great idea. No need for expensive jails then. Mr Scumbag gets his five for possessing a proper handgun, gets dropped off on St Kilda and makes friends with sheep and Puffins.
After five years, we will go and collect him - if he is still alive.
Yes, I am being silly, but like many others, I am utterly fed up of locking up people who commit crimes from the minute they awake and until they go back to sleep, just for the Judge, Magistrate, Sheriff (whatever) to release them back onto the streets.
Honest question from (honest) member of the public - how hard are judges and magistrates being leant on by politicos to keep sentences low to non-existent because of full prisons?
I was thinking the exact same thing, exactly, and as if by some form of wierd and wonderful magic, the self same thing appears here.
Spot on.
Proper sentences ? Slow down and keep it real in this fantasy wonderland.
Nightjack - I like the sentiment about him wanting to shame the judiciary… however its way too late for that…. the judiciary and most of the legal process (post arrest) is beyond shame now!
Hell and handcarts spring to mind!
I can just see the legal bods jumping for joy at your mention of pigeon-shooters and mental health people. “See”, they cry, “There must be exceptions!”
Yea, maybe so, but ours wouldn’t be the same as theirs!
In my area theres a moderate amount of gun crime (something like 1 news-worthy shooting per month or so). Mostly drug dealers and scum shooting each other though which is a small mercy.
I know for a fact one person that a mate in the job has nicked in possession of a loaded firearm three times in as many years (i won’t mention which one as it might identify him) has served less than six months total inside for all three offences combined! He got that on similar grounds to what Nightjack decribes in his comment.
Really, what kind of deterrent is that? Any justice system operates on Fear (yes it comes with a capital letter!), Fear of getting caught and punished - any one in the world from the Americans to the French to Saudi. Without that the system is just that - a system serving no purpose.
Quite simply, criminals no longer Fear getting caught as they know that theyre unlikely to get caught with dwindling police response manpower, then unlikely to get charged with CPS’s target-driven approach, and if the worst comes to the worst they can cop a guilty plea and be out in 1/3 of their sentance or so.
The whole situation is very nicely summed up by a quote from one of my favourite films: “The end is extremely f*cking nigh”.
I should clarify too - it wasn’t an air-rifle or the like. It was a cut-down automatic rifle-class weapon. I’m sure that gives most of you a picture?
Hogan Howe is looking for a job at the Met hence the article in The Times. I live in Merseyside and like other places in Britain, ‘Gun Crime’ is overwhelmingly druggies shooting other druggies and does not inpact on Joe Public. However this has not stopped Hogan Howe forming Matrix (special uniforms & logos) to combat gun crime. The 200 plus officers in Matrix would better serve Merseyside people by walking the beat.
With elections coming up the cynic in me has to ask which party is this story benefiting.
With ACPO ranks being more like politicians the Police officers this story seems more politically motivated than for anyone elses benefit.
Dougal:
I am what they call in the trade a “senior magistrate”. I have never, ever been leant on by politicos to sentence more or less harshly, except in the change to guidelines. Some years ago )not that many) a first time disqualified driver would go down. Now the sentence is a community penalty for even the second offense. Not in my court - a second timer goes down unless there are exceptional (and I mean very exceptional) circumstances.
More importantly is the way in which the CPS fail, routinely, to ask for the full range of sentencing options to be considered and in many cases we humble JPs can’t do this unless they ask. examples : Post-conviction ASBOs. Forfeiture of vehicles, driving bans, football banning orders (in my neck of the woods, even where the offense is in the grounds of the club, the CPS forget to ask for this - we have no power to impose ban of our own volition).
Suggestion for all you guys and girls in blue. Look up the full range of powers and build that into the file. Eg - if a vehicle was used (eg shoplifting) we can disqualify and destroy….
In domestic violence cases we can impose a post-conviction ASBO which means that even if the perpetrator does not go down for the offense, they will almost certainly go down for the breach…
Although not (knowingly) a gypsy, I spent part of my youth in some corner of a local field indulging in the character-forming hobby of murdering fluffy bunnies with an airgun.
It was horrifying to learn that this counts as ‘trespass with a firearm’ with the possibilty of some lengthy spells at Liz’s pleasure.
Luckily for me, the local police presence consists of an annual fly-by from what must have been >99% of the CC’s capital expenditure budget, if they have such things, so I never found out what the punishments are like. The rabbits round here taste like utter shit too (that’s in mitigation, Your Honour).
I’d hate to think what you’d get for possession of an M72 light anti-tank weapon, but for warding off intruders I prefer it to a baseball bat. The only drawback is I keep forgetting from which end the rocket comes out. It consoles me to think that giving them this 50:50 chance must be a sign of bravery on my part.
(Guardian readerish, but it’s still sad to see a magistrate spelling offence the American way.)
Rex- can’t courts impose post-conviction ASBOS “of the Court’s own motion”?
I seem to recall reading about a court that gave drug dealers post-conviction ASBOS that banned them having a mobile phone and/or large amounts of cash on their person.
It left them with more liberty than they’d have inside, but it would be hard to deal in drugs without breaching the order.
I am afraid Rex Imperator beat me to the post on this one. I agree with all he says. None of my colleagues take note of what the government’s problems are, we will sentence to prison as and when it’s needed. For the record I don’t agree with discount for guilty pleas. However, we have absolutely no say over being released half way through a sentence that is a Governor’s privilege another thing I disagree with. In respect of bail it used to be police officer’s in person who would address the bench on this and they would have the full facts to hand. Unfortunately it’s now CPS and usually an agent drafted in at short notice. Benches do not see the case files so we rely on what the CPS tell us - which isn’t usually very much. Whilst you may not agree with some sentencing decisions, remember the judiciary are what stands between freedom and state control. What road do you want to travel on?
Watch out, at this rate we will have a CC stating that the role of the police officer is to maintain law and order and f*** all this PCSO business lets get real police out on the streets.
Not that I have any issues with PCSCs. It is the fact that the public are having the wool pulled over their eyes.
Not remotely on topic, but isn’t the NUT’s attitude towards the army wonderful?
To hear representatives from one of the largest public sector unions speak out with such pride in our armed forces is a truly heartening spectacle.
For the sake of our army, I can only hope their influence in government grows.
If the police made more presentations to schools, who knows, maybe they would be singled out for praise as well.
Watchman@16
Don’t fool yourself,
and do not try to fool others:
the judiciary are part and parcel of the state control apparatus.
(That is just a bit of the Bliar legacy.)
Michael
It is beyond belief.
Yet we seem more focussed on imprisoning the white collar criminal (to send a message out) than we do Billy the Burglar.
Rex and Watchman, I commend you for stating your views on here. I suspect like many of the Police Officers and MOP’s that read this and other blogs like it, the very fact you do, and post your views and comments shows you do take it seriously and dare I say ‘care’. This I would suggest may be reflected in your sentencing.
There is no doubt that the ’system’ is not well understood in its entirety by many.
That said, joe public comes to court for relatively minor issues and seems to get a tougher deal than our more frequent customers, who really do need the full weight of the law thrown at them if only to protect joe public.
The CPS issue, if you have even basic experience of the system, desperately needs to be addressed. Without wishing to defend them, when I questioned a good friends defence solicitor and barrister over how he could come to be in the dock over a misunderstanding (seriously, it was. Fraud related though), they said it was a CPS failing.
They had not looked at ALL the evidence and by ALL even the defence submission statement. Despite the fact that my friend wrote to the CPS requesting documentation (from a third party the CPS were prosecuting on behalf of) that would clearly exhonerate him, he was told by the CPS in writing that he was on a ‘fishing expedition’ (quote).
This by a senior member of the CPS.
By taking the civil route, via data protection and gaining this info he was able to put it before the jury. Strangely, even the judge when asking some questions at the end of his giving evidence seemed perplexed as to why this information would not have been forthcoming since it seemed to have significant weight.
The jury retires and its unanimous not guilty. Something that could have been cleared up before charge, at least before commital IF someone had been willing to look at the evidence and listen. Lets not even begin to count the monetary cost or physical cost on both he and his family.
And these very same mistakes, in terms of not being thorough and thinking it all through and probably being swamped in work mean their SLAs and targets will be focussed on where they are sure, on the face of it, they will get a conviction.
So, as we know, if it doesnt look like a stone bonking winner for them, they dont run the case.
Dave H @ 18. The wonderful Margaret Hodge, leader of the Republic of Hackney in the 70’s forbade police from visiting schools in her borough for much the same reasons.
There’s nothing like an old lefty is there? Still at least we know where these ‘Wolfie Smith’ / Dave Sparts are.
Shit teachers in shit schools!
Anon you are so enlightened, I wish i could be more like you
Joanne jones, according to today’s Daily Mail, has again escaped prison after pleading Guilty to her 175th conviction for shoplifting. (Yes. One hundred and seventy-fifth!).
You were saying, Mr. Magistrate?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=547310&in_page_id=1770
Dickie I guess she’s not eligible for a PND then?
http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/13758/14782/bladerunner-bullet-proof-defender-hoodie.phtml
Seen the article about the bulletproof Hoddie going on sale..I might be interested…but only if they do one in Red!
Rex Imperator -check with your legal advisors -nothing to stop you making an FBO of your own volition! In my experience I’m afraid it’s usually magistrates who don’t want to make them either a) he’s got a season ticket so he’s obviously a real fan and this is just a blip it would be so disproportionate to ban him for 3 years (despite the fact proportionality should have nothing to do with it) or b) he hasn’t got a season ticket so he only goes occasionally so it’s not worth making an order.
To be fair our local lay bench are improving a lot (we never had any problems with the DJs who did apply the correct test)
In one neighbouring county (with a lower league club -but premier league hooligans) the magistrates had made virtually no banning orders for years to the despair of their local FLOs. Came over to us for a derby-we got around a dozen orders in one day and several more over the following weeks.
PTCOP
Any case that goes to a jury -there was a case to answer!