Stop and Account replaced by more new forms.
January 30, 2008 by inspectorgadget
Before we all get excited about the Government getting rid of the embarrassingly stupid ‘Stop and Account’ form, please lets not forget that at precisely the same time, thousands of police officers in England and Wales will start filling out the new MG14 forms. The MG14 is considerably more complicated than the ‘Stop and Account’ form.
Police bureaucracy - Rob Peter to Pay Paul.
‘Conditional Cautioning’ is the latest nonsense from the liberal elite who run the criminal justice system. This new ‘disposal’ is yet another way of keeping criminals out of Court, and thus the chance (however unlikely these days) of going to prison.
Criminals in Ruralshire will have to write a note saying ’sorry’ to victims in order to get away with whatever they have done. Unbelievably, they can write this in their own language, even though the victim is unable to read it! I did NOT make that up.
I guess that the criminals are becoming more like the police in this way at least!
The MG14 is the form which police officers have to complete to make this happen. It is introduced this year along with more new forms for the laughably named ‘Hate Crime’ (as PC Copperfield once wrote - who ever committed an ‘I like you very much’ crime?) new forms to monitor police response to Road Traffic Accidents, forms for Victim Code Compliance and the new and wretched ‘Witness Charter’.
If you read any of the self-satisfied spin from the Home Office claiming to have cut down on police bureaucracy, please remember that at the same time they have introduced at least four times as much in the same period.
Gadget REALITY CHECK of the day:
Nobody ever filled out the bloody form anyway, unless they could see a complaint coming, it was a minority ethnic ‘customer’ or the search was on CCTV. This explains the disproportionate number of Black and Asian youths ’searched’. Sorry if this is a bit too truthful for some.
If you look closely, you can almost see the liberal elite and government officals waving and cheering on that rowing boat! Only we can see the criminals swimming towards them in the sea!
Does this mean victims will have to give the criminals their address in order to receive the “I’m sorry but not really sorry. I’m sorry that I got caught, but I’m not sorry that I hurt/stole from you”.
For those who can’t write to their own names, let alone a whole letter, is there a template already? If not, perhaps there’s a profiteering niche market there to be exploited. But then again, I’d be assuming these people would have two coins to rub together.
Kyle - there is a Mediation Service who oversee the letters. This is called ‘restorative justice’. They can also attend ‘anger management’ courses and if required, the police pay for interpreters (£300 per day minimum - course is two weeks) Go figure..
Not to mention the new 4 page DGQP form and the SSSJ system. Lets get rid of 4MG forms to help speed the system up and introduce a 4 page system instead!!
I call the DGQP file “the DEFINITELY GUILTY file so I remember that this for the full cough gov it’s a fair cop, you got me bang to rights.
Now we have to put a copy of the interview with the file and all CCTV footage.
Just one thing “WHY”.
I forgot to add, I aint doing any conditional cautions!! end of.
I think its time to revert to good old fashioned reporting for summons, lets skip all the nonsense in the middle and that includes the CPS.
Is that true about the language in the latter ? So , if my house gets done over and the scrote is caught he could write me a “sorry I got caught” letter in a language I don’t understand ? So I wouldn’t understand what the letter meant……it would be meaningless. So what’s the point ? No answers necessary I think.
Damn. I hate posting about understanding the written word and doing a typo……
If the scrote has to write (or dictate) a “sorry I got caught for blagging your gaff” letter, will they have to put their address on it, thus allowing the ‘victim’ to go round and blag the scrote’s gaff next time he’s up before the beak - sorry for the language, just been watching a DVD of ‘Life on Mars’.
On the money again IG.
Only one reform I want to see……..let me close off incident logs with “NO OFFENCES DISCLOSED. ADVICE GIVEN” again like in the old days. Don’t make me turn every playground fight into an assault investigation and every parental chastisement into an abuse case.
PLEASE GIVE ME BACK MY DISCRETION
(Sorry it just makes me upset)
Are you suggesting we make them write a letter in a language they can’t speak? Would that include having to take a year of evening classes first. Now THAT would be restorative justice.
Oh nightjack - you have mentioned the dreaded “no offences disclosed” update. This phrase has done more to shake the foundations of the witless, gutless, pink, fluffy idiots who shape our lives than any other! In Ruralshire Constabulary, the phrase is BANNED on pain of death! Thanks for reminding me of it, I feel the next post coming on!
Ye im sory four gitting court i primir nit two did it agin.
If you ain’t got a driving licence you aren’t in theory allowed on the road until you get one and so if you don’t speak English you shouldn’t be allowed to be a citizen of this country until you can. Safety, you know it makes sense.
This was also covered in Bystander’s blog a while back.
http://thelawwestofealingbroadway.blogspot.com/2006_09_01_archive.html
a true story.
In 1979 we got a new Chief Constable. He took one look a prosecution file (at that time every Force had their own forms and procedures) and said something to the effect of ‘this is bo**ocks, too many forms, all we need is one form saying who he is and another saying what he did’ And that was it. A file was a charge sheet a summary any witness statements already obtained, an antecednt form and the last three pre- cons. There was a three line compensation form if required and another tick box form if the offender was on probation, conditional discharge , bind over or suspended sentence. Once charged the prisoner would be bailed to appear at Court within three or four days. More went guilty because they did not have enough time to speak to their mates and make up a story.
This went on for about 4 or 5 years until CPS came on the scene. The first thing they wanted was just one extra form on the file. This form was purple coloured and consisted of a sheet of A3 folded in half to make 4 sides of A4. The form requested all sorts of ‘important information’ such as defendants name and ethnicity and whether the defendant was juvenile. All the information requested could already be found on the file, - but only by reading it.
That form became the MG1 and 2. etc etc.
John
Please don’t mention Bystander on this Blog, it upsets the readers (and the author)
Thanks
IG
(ONLY KIDDING)
I only fill the forms in ’cause it’s a “tick in the box” or a “bean”. I’ll wager that 90% of the street PC’s on this forum are the same.
“Why are we in this handcart and where are we going?”
The ordinary members of the public have no doubt heard ad nauseum about the paperwork and forms that you have to complete but I never really appreciated it until a police officer friend showed me just one example required to be completed if he stopped a vehicle, for example, late at night.I could hardly believe it and this had to be completed for the driver and each passenger,as you say “you couldnt make it up” Why dont you photocopy and show on this blog some of the worst examples and let us mop`s really see what you are actually up against and why we rarely see you out doing the job we expect of you.
Guv, don’t spoil it for me.
I was so looking forward to the brave new world ahead as well.
(Sniff)
You know how to hurt a guy, don’t you?
I expect there are many readers, who in the past, when resulting a domestic incident recall the imortal words - ” Domestic dispute parties advised” - end of.
God I feel old….
Sorry to be off topic….but
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7218310.stm
“sorry I couldnt turn for me probation meeting, but I gotta sick note for me hand, where it still hurts from twatting that victim”
Bystander, I’m sure you couldn’t care less! So many juicy legal arguments and dilemmas to take your mind off it eh?
As you know, Gadget, there’s no way that the bureaucrats will ever really do away with the forms, because to do away with the bureaucracy is to do away with the bureaucrats.
The point in your post that people from ethnic minority groups are more likely to be found in those forms because the police fear complaints mirrors what Copperfield said in Wasting Police Time.
Meanwhile, the commentariat don’t really suffer any of the consequences of this nonsense and just get the nice warm feeling that comes with knowing you’re not a racist.
And for everyone else, the streets get more dangerous.
It’s as though the powers that be have never heard of the law of unintended consequences. Unless they intend the consequences, of course.
It’s good to see from the comments on here that there are still police officers who see the creeping Orwellisation of society - I hope you all talk about it with colleagues who don’t read this and the other blogs, particularly the young ones who don’t have the necessary historical perspective to see what’s going on.
Re the comments by Steve (11.32am above), I don’t know if any of you heard Frank Chalk on Five Live this morning (unmasking himself, or at least speaking in his own voice)? He was debating education with a bloke from Wales called Ceri; Ceri was certainly missing the necessary perspective!
Great post, Gadget, keep it up!
of course the irony of all this is that the stop and search form pre se, is actually one of the best forms we have….. Its not the form that is a problem, its the incidences in which it has to be used which is the problem. Stop and account is utterly ludicous, and these are the occasions which I suspect refer to the IG reality check!
If I search someone, I need to write that down, if I ask someone to account for their actions and I’m happy and they walk away, thats 10 minutes of my life I’ll never get back by filling in a useless form!
Stop and account must go!
“inspectorgadget Says:
January 31, 2008 at 7:08 am
John
Please don’t mention Bystander on this Blog, it upsets the readers (and the author)
Thanks
IG
(ONLY KIDDING)”
This was a case of you and Bystander agreeing about something though.
Im still calming down having listened to Jaquie Smith on GMTV this morning
” We are giving tougher sentences, more police on the street and increase in Neighbourhood Policing…..blah blah blah”
She is a bloody liability who hasnt a clue what she is doing -how much longer can her incompetence along with the government carry on before the counrty melts down!!
…………. who ever committed an ‘I like you very much’ crime?
The French?
They even have a word for it - Crime Passionnel…….
IG, have you actually had “No offences disclosed, advice given” banned? Please keep that to yourself. Its my favourite write off for crap and as long as every allegation has been covered in a sub result it works a treat. Playground fights almost never turn into assaults under the multi agency partnership endorsed by several government departments!
IG - you’re making three fairly erroneous assumptions in your comments mate:
You’re assuming the government gives a crap about the current state of police paperwork / red tape (which they clearly don’t since they’re constantly contributing to it on a monthly basis).
You’re assuming the politicians are in touch with the realities of policing (hahaha yes this one made me laugh too).
Beauraucrats have no idea how to cut out paperwork, it’s against their religion! (Which worships the Three headed god of Obfuscation, Spin and Accountability). Slightly more seriously, why would they remove the paperwork - it lets them micromanage and keep the accountability squarely on the officers.
“All parties spoken to, advice given, no complaints, no further Police action required”
One sentence, says it all and thankfully we’re still allowed to use it even if the Met did score a ‘deep red’ on NCRS compliance because of it.
Lozzy, the resident right winger, is back. If you can’t speak English you shouldn’t be allowed in? Well that would work wonders in Spain and France for the ex pats.
You want to try our forms in NZ! Now thats when it can get complicated. However we decide the charge, they are at court within a week and IIRC in the 6 months since joing this buch every one has gone guilty and recieved an appropriate sentence. How I missed descretion!
Metcountymounty it scores a deep red on NCRS compliance? These things have a colour coded scheme to demarcate compliance or not?? Ha! Surely that’s discriminatory against people with colour blindness. If green is good and red is bad, how’d they know the difference?!
In the meantime I heard of a bloke in the Met’s DPG who got hauled into the superintendents office because his stop and search record was exclusively targeted against a particular ethnic minority.
Huffing and puffing superintendent was somewhat taken aback when he was told that he’d only done one stop and search all year so explaining the apparent bias!!! heheheheheheh. Hard life those DPG boys.
Back on topic- completely agree with the line “Beauracrats will never do away with beuracracu”. The stop /account form was brought in as a result of the MacPherson (Stephen Lawrence) enquiry. It’s a performance indicator. No superintendent would dare withdraw them
Beuracrats will never do away with beuraracu? Hmm. Try Beuracracy. Must proof read more often.
I’m definitely not a touchy-feely, make everyone feel good, everybody is a good person at heart kind of guy; but I do have a distinct feeling that Hate Crimes have gotten an unfair rap in the last couple of years. Not sure how they play over in the UK, but over here in the States they were designed for the purpose of giving a little extra disincentive to help overcome someone’s natural tendency to pick on a particular group of people. To gently remind those two fine gents from Wyoming who tied that gay fella (Matthew Shepard) to a post in the middle of a cowfield and slowly beat and bled him to death that the rest of the country deems this uncivil behavior. To try to discourage these two fine fellas from acting on their natural bigoted impulses, and perhaps protect a group that is at extra risk of being beaten or killed.
You know, really for the same reasons we have (theoretically) extremely harsh punishments for cop-killers; we’re trying to discourage people from attacking particularly at-risk groups.
And then some knucklehead named them “hate crimes” instead of “we’re going to hang you twice and then execute your children if you do this” crimes. And the whole world started laughing because they were given a really dumb and inappropriate name by some liberal guy who can think of no greater crime in the world than disliking someone.
I guess my point was that there was a reason they exist. I can’t speak to how effective these “hate crime” laws are here in the States; but at least there was a semi-justifiable reason for them in the beginning. You know, so that all groups have an equal opportunity to be beaten, attacked, killed, or mugged. All right, feel free to yell and ridicule me now.
Jon
Sorry, I should have explained.
In UK, a Hate Crime is anything (from shouting a name to stealing a car) which anyone, present or not, the victim or not, deems to be a crime committed because of a persons perceived membership of any religious, racial, national, Jedi or any other group (except white, married, working men - who can be beaten at will).
This has not stopped such crimes, but it HAS kept a lot of consultants in work.
Call me old fashioned, but I’ll attend anything, regardless of the victims personal situation.
No one asked me if I was black or white when I was getting shot at in the Bogside.
Get rid of the form! Perhaps a preprinted card with the officer’s details and a ticky box to show which power was used. Having the officers write out the grounds after they have already explained them verbally is just daft!
Also they are talking about increasing the stop and search powers. I’m not certain but it seems they are allowing Sgts to authorise S.60 PACE. Anyone heard any more detail? I may be getting 5 from 2 and 2… I actually think that existing search powers are sufficient. Perhaps adding a search clause to bail, probation, and asbo would be nice as we could then target those with a known disposition to carry off weps, drugs etc.
“Beuracrats will never do away with beuraracu? Hmm. Try Beuracracy. Must proof read more often.”
At the risk of appearing pedantic, how about “bureaucrat” and “bureaucracy”, and if that still doesn’t do it for you, then you could always try “penpusher”…
The discussions about changing the stop and search documentation has led to some politicians saying they don’t want to return to the ’sus laws’
The ’sus laws’ are part of the Vagrancy Act 1824 and they have nothing to do with stop and search. For the record, the wording of the offence was - ‘Every suspected person or reputed thief, frequenting any river, canal, or navigable stream, dock, or basin, or any quay, wharf, or warehouse near or adjoining thereto, or any street, highway, or avenue leading thereto, or any place of public resort, or any avenue leading thereto, or any street, or any highway or any place adjacent to a street or highway with intent to commit an arrestable offence (is guilty)
The sus law was used in London to combat handbag thieves, ‘muggers’and theft from vehicles. Typical scenario, person tries a car door handle which makes him a suspected person, then he reaches his hand into a shop letter box which is enough to show the intent to commit.
There were allegations that ethnic minorities were unfairly picked on, but it was more to do with it being used in places like Brixton.
In the end the law was repealed and replaced in 1981 by the Criminal Attempts Act, As we all know, the general stop and search powers came in 1985 when PACE was adopted.
So, next time some handwringing liberal elite politician warns about returning to the ’sus laws’, you know he is talking rubbish.
Twining, yes it would work in France and Spain for ex-pats, rather it is now as the French have withdrwan free medical assistance until formally resident for 5 years which is bringing the pains on for many expats, especially older people, plus they don’t print everything in 50 languages. As for Spain they are now finding that immigration from Europe especially is causing huge demands on their health service especially for geriatric care and insurance is now a necessity for anyone becoming resident, again they don’t treat the world for nothing. There is also plenty of resentment for the European ghettoes that now exist along the Med coast. See how the Valencian land grab is affecting these immigrants. No state help for them. There are plenty of requirments for people to fund themselves and they have to speak the language to a degree unlike this country. Silly sniping about racism again clouds the argument and many are tired of silly reactions like yours. Recent repeorts about the NHS maternity services are a a case in point. Probably why care for the elderly is now in a parlous state. Put an argument forward but please stop slinging the racist/imperialist/colonialist labels around. As for all this talk about Stop and Search, lets not forget the power was enshrined in both the Metropolitan Police and City of London Police Acts as well as for other forces in the Town Police Clauses Acts. Detaisl were placed in STOP BOOKS in station front offices. Blue knight is correct re ‘SUS’ and the Vagrancy Act of 1824. Very handy back in the day when one wondered when that young chap was going to get on that bus! With all this talk about getting rid of the current Stop & Search form I still haven’t heard a squeak from the usual suspects in reply and in defence of the Macpherson led initiative. Give it time! Maybe like the Labour promise on mixed sex wards in NHS hospitals it will never happen?
Ranter I was referring to one individual who is free to make remarks. And if you bothered to see you would realise that other police bloggers have commented how those remarks are pretty nasty and without any basis. And we hang on to these people because it suits our views? And we allow them in? Oh well? If you want to encourage right wing extremists that’s up to you. I don’t class you as one. However I question your understanding.
I have not slung any labels against anyone else. So, why are you having a go at me, (Colonial)? If you don’t like what I say, fine, but that doesn’t make you right all the time. How can you speak for ex pats? Have you lived the life? Also, we have rights to, after all it was the British that had the Colonies and these were our countries; and the British did benefit.
It just seems like a mass excuse to have a go. Fine, not a problem with me. But you can’t have it both ways yaar! We pilfer the Africa’s but we don’t want Africans because their a drain on our resources? Defies logic!
Sus may have been used as Blueknight says, but Sus was also used to pick on and upset some Black men for no reasons. It was a matter of using power to piss people off. There are issues with bureaucracy, don’t blame Macpherson, blame the implementation of Macpherson and the Inspector and Chief Inspectors who advise incorrectly to submit search forms. There has been a distortion of figures. I wonder why? Alas.
You don’t need to speak English to be able to survive here. Most immiggrant couples who have arrived here are working. It would be nice to be able to speak English, of course. We have Capello. He’s surviving, isn’t he? and he’s selection seems OK? And when we go abroad, how many of us learn the language, or do we expect others to speak English?
Inspector gadget, I really can’t be bothered anymore. I would be greatful if you would just ensure my last two comments are deleted.
One of your own ranks from Thames Valley Police - I think the guy’s called Insp Tony Walker - is a massive advocate of Restorative Justice. I’ve seen him talk on the subject many times. One time he was accompanied by residents of an estate, one of whom, a lady, had suffered terribly at the hands of some local, rampaging yobs. She couldn’t praise the Restorative Process highly enough, although it did incorporate more than just a letter. It seems there may be some coppers out there who think it’s a good idea.
I’ve seen a few talks by a Thames Valley copper, I think his name’s Tony Walker, on the subject of Restorative Justice. He loves it! In fact, at one event he was accompanied by a lady who lived on an estate which had been plagued by a rampaging group which had targetted her and her family in particular. She describes the situation and how the RJ process helped. She couldn’t sing it’s praises enough. It did, however, involve far more than just a letter but those involved, including the victim and local Police Officers couldn’t speak highly enough of it.
In fact, here are some stories of RJ direct from the TVP website:
http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/news_info/info/rj/victim-story.htm
Sorry for the double posting - computer playing up!
Stop and account. I refused to do it for 2 years following it’s introduction.
Now we get a ‘tick’ for submitting them. However, I only put them in when I stop a well known ‘customer’. I still won’t stick them in for Jo public.
I don’t think any officer has any real complaint with writing a stop/search form, but having to do a foot long form for just stopping and asking someone where they are going at 3am is a joke.
I can’t comment on conditional cautions as we haven’t had the afternoon powerpoint brainwashing yet. I’m sure whatever the idea was initially, and however well meaning it was, the idiots will have got a grip and turned it into a monster only fit for keeping more lazy, incompetant officers off the streets, sending emails.
And this week we had an armed robbery across the road from the nick and officers were not allowed to go into the store until the offenders had left as they had a machete, the Sgt did a ‘risk assesment’. So after half an hour they managed to get into the timelocked safe and then get away with thousends whislt officer who wanted to go in immediately, were held back.
Guv, please can you link to my new blog.
There is only one person to blame for all this ballhoo and that is judge scarman, whose report and the media reorting of his report destroyed the police service . Scarman set himself up as an expert on the charistics of black people. to say his report was a lot of bollox is an understatement and the public, not the police who are auffering. during bbc. “queston time on 1/2/08 99% OF THE AUDIENCE PRAISED THE WORK OF THE POLICE CONCERNING ” the stop &search” procedure. Who was the one who disagreed, A black lady,w ho by her very facial expression] [ upon which was scarman relied so much and her vitrolic statment regading the police could only lead one to think tha she and her family had first hand knowledge of the workings of the police.
Can I assure mr goldstein that I’m neither incompent or lazy an doing this e-mail in my own time
Off topic but I had to post this one. In today’s national newspapers are two stories, firstly the Government has sent out a manual to all local authorities with guidance on how to deal with householders and wheelie bins. It covers how to administer £100 on the spot fines for putting out the bin early and for leaving the lid slightly ajar. The second news item is in relation to Government proposals to NOT send burglars to PRISON if their sentence is less than 12 months’. Jack Straw commented and my words are not verbatim’ Don’t anyone be under the impression that this is a soft option they, those convicted, will have to undertake hard community work like building nest boxes for environmental issues in the local area.
I have checked the date and it is February 1st not April the 1st.
Bob
The actual verbatim is:
“For many offenders on sentences of less than 12 months, community-based punishments are proven to be more effective at reducing reoffending than short prison terms. Therefore, we will fund at least six intensive alternatives to custody projects with new investment of £13.9 million over the next three years. The first such project will begin in Derbyshire in March, and will include a combination of unpaid work, electronic monitoring, behaviour programmes, mentoring, and help with resettlement, all under intensive supervision. More than six million hours of unpaid work are already carried out in the community each year. With the Department for Communities and Local Government we will further build on community payback, such as through options like citizens’ panels to decide on which projects offenders should undertake in their local area.”
Thanks for the explanation about hate crimes IG. That seems absolutely stupid; if “hate crimes” punishments are not tailored to the offense and maybe the group, what the hell good are they? Why not just raise the penalty overall? Which is your point, I suppose.
H27, I don’t dispute your reply. I was quoting the comments made by Jack Strew. What are your thoughts on the wheelie bin issue or are you employed working with offenders after conviction?.
Bob
My work is not an issue. As for wheelie bins, as with the second part of your post, my problem is with the way the media report things, with the vast poetic licence they employ. Whether I agree with the policies or not I’d rather they were reported accurately so I can make up my mind based on fact rather than a journalistic slant.
H/h27 - what does it matter? Anything this govt proposes is complete tosh - an idea a day, a bit of cod consultation (if we are lucky) and then……………….
In relation to post no.14 by Lozzy. Does that mean Lozzy that you’d agree that all the English only speaking police officers serving in Wales and in particular North Wales as well as the other monoglots (especially the racist ‘white flighters’ should leave Wales forthwith or do we have to continue to suffer being told by rude ignorant and aggressive anti-Welsh officers to stop speaking our own tongue in our own country? Mind you, perhaps this is just another thinly veiled English supremacist racist attack from the right wing. I bet you read the Daily Mail or at least sympathise with it. You complain about the criminals not being conversant in the tongue of the host nation, we have to put up with the police and other law enforcers, public-servants and beaurocrats being almost totally ignorant of our language. However, I of course should point out that the Chief Constable of North Wales has tried his best to remedy this situation by both encouraging officers and learning himself to a very good standard. If only his officers on the beat and in the stations were of the same intellect and understanding.
diolch a hwel fawr