Every now and again I come across a story which leaves me dazed and confused. Here is such a story:
Two Cheshire teenagers who terrorized a vulnerable man before beating him to death and throwing his body in a river, have had their life sentences cut. Craig Dodd, aged 17, will now serve a minimum of three-and-a-half years in prison and Ryan Palin, 15, three years.
How many times were they let off after previous attacks?
The pair were dubbed as “feral” when they were jailed for life for the manslaughter of Raymond Atherton, 40, in Warrington.
They beat and urinated on Mr Atherton before dumping him in the River Mersey.
The court heard Palin, of Grasmere Avenue, Orford, and Dodd, of Lisguard Close, Runcorn spent months systematically abusing the victim, who had severe learning difficulties, in a process they nicknamed ‘terroring’.
Atherton had learning difficulties.
They regularly broke into his council flat on St Katherine’s Way, Howley, where they wrote graffiti on the walls, burnt his hair and daubed his face with paint.
On the night of his death in May 2006, the boys were seen by neighbours beating him with planks of wood until he bled. The pair were caught after boasting about what they had done to friends.
Predictably, there is some fatuous, self-serving legal argument which no-doubt justifies the sentence reduction.
You couldn’t make it up.
It wasn’t their fault. As one of their relatives was quoted as saying about Ryan Palin
“He was an angel when he lived with us, so good. He is a product of his awful life and constant neglect from Warrington’s social services.”
So there you have it – the social workers done it.
http://www.thisischeshire.co.uk/display.var.1321796.0.my_nephew_the_killer.php
No IG, there is no argument which justifies anything in this matter. As I expressed just three days ago Life is cheap, it is becoming cheaper. Three years is nothing in a lifetime, an average college course, and enough time for a villain to learn how to become a better villain, or change his ways and get a degree while he has time on his hands. I will repeat from my last post ‘I wondered if the world outside really knew, or even cared what this was really like’. Seems apart this clicke, no one does.
I get so fed up with all this shite
When I first joined this job in 1974 I joined to help people – honest
As I grew older I read with incredulity the stories of harm done to people in the good old
US of A and thought it would never happen here
The more I read and the more I hear I realise that we have sunk as far as they have and life is so cheap that it has lost any worth
To quote whoever it was – we are going to hell in a handcart
and I am glad I am no longer in the job to see it !!!
Murdering scum
“But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture,
Tell them that God bids us do good for evil.
And thus I clothe my naked villainy
With odd old ends stolen forth of holy writ,
And seem I a saint, when most I play the Devil.”
They are like animals, attacking and killing the weakest and most vulnerable, except that most animals don’t bother to waste the energy – they can’t afford to.
Of course, they can’t help it. It was their upbringing / drugs / drink / mother / loss of teddy bear / teacher / abusive father / not watching enough/too much TV / poor living conditions / lack of self respect / prospects / poverty / girlfriend left them ….
Oh, the excuses are endless. I’ll bet there’s a lawyer or social worker out there who has written a thesis on it and built their twisted career on it.
Bring back hanging.
“If another potential victim like Ryan could be saved it would be a blessing.”
What the F**K is going on in this country!! If this ’subhuman thing’ is being called a victim just what was Raymond Atherton? I suppose it was his fault that he had severe learning difficulties.
I am so angry and frustrated for there seems nothing we can do to make this country a better place. All I can do is shed some tears for Raymond Atherton
I fear we are ALL to blame, society I mean. We must be as these wastes of skin are always described ‘he wouldn’t hurt a fly’ I mean, there’s nothing you CAN say is there? it’s all such a frigging mess, there’s real life and then there’s life as those tossers in Westminster, the meeja, ACPO (look at Ian Blair for God’s sake), and the rest of the establishment. Something is very very wrong when in the 21st century as our society’s rules become acknowledge and dictate that we must be more cicvilized, the opposite is actually true for a substantial portion of society. There’s an answer, but no one will be able to do it – it has gone too far!
Much as I dislike advocating violence, next time some politician stands up and says “Our party is tough on crime” we should send these two round to enlighten him.
and then the social worker adds …
John Dunkerley, head of service for children’s social care and youth services at the council, said: “This has been a very sad and tragic case and our thoughts go to the families of the victims and those who committed the offence.
thoughts to those who committed the offence ? eh , what ? truly we are now in Kafka territory
the time is comming when the victims o f crime will KNOW they wiil not get the support of the state..then what ?
[...] Inspector Gadget blogs about a pair of utter scrotes who have actually had their sentences cut from life imprisonment to just three and three and a half years. Two Cheshire teenagers who terrorized a vulnerable man before beating him to death and throwing his body in a river, have had their life sentences cut. Craig Dodd, aged 17, will now serve a minimum of three-and-a-half years in prison and Ryan Palin, 15, three years. [...]
Vigilanteism (is that spelt correctly?), that is the future as less police constables are on the streets and the courts have no spine. When will our once great country stand up and say ‘NO THIS STOPS HERE’ because if the government doesnt the people will.
There is no justice for the victims anymore these scumbags know nothing will happen so they just continue.
Where can we find why “our learned friends”came to the conclusion that these two deserved to be let loose earlier.
*sigh*
I’m going to go lie down in a darkened room with a large glass of red wine.
I’ll get cross about this later, but at the moment I feel too numb from the relentless pressure of the congenital stupidity of The Powers that Be.
Big Fella, I am not convinced the rest of the community will care enough to do anything, legal or otherwise.
this vulnerable person was let down time and time again;
‘whenever social workers noticed he had been beaten up, Atherton was unable to provide dates of incidents or the names of his abusers’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/aug/15/guardiansocietysupplement.socialcare
So that’s it then? so Dodd and Palin were allowed to carry on? We cant’, protect those who can’t protect themselves, what a disgrace we are.
The fact that these attacks were made over a period of time, a catalogue of sustained and sadistic attacks, the sentence, I really don’t have the words to describe how I feel about that.
Sorry to interrupt, but I’m looking at sky news text, And DC Catherine Corbett has regained consciousness.
“Ms Corbett has been able to reach out to her family and squeeze their hands”
“Cathy is no longer considered critical, though she will be very poorly for some time to come”
The facts do not justify the above rant-fest.
http://www.thisischeshire.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1819308.mostviewed.teen_killers_could_be_released_in_three_years.php
is not a law report but a press report, and it says, accurately, that the ‘life’ sentence (that does not mean what it says, as we all know) has been replaced by indeterminate sentences with a minimum (nb) tariff, from which they cannot be released until they have been assessed as safe.
The appeal judment hinged on a technical lehal point. The effect on the time served will be little or none.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bystander – exactly what most people in this country are, as they stand by and watch this country go down the pan. Who cares about some technical legal point? They killed a man who had severe learning difficulties; end of.
Hang the bastards.
“Mr Atherton’s body was discovered a week later on May 15 when police spotted Dodd and Palin in a stolen car showing the dead man to their friends and boasting of what that they had done.”
SICK BASTARDS
“Dodd, of Lisguard Close, Brookvale, Runcorn, Cheshire, and Palin of Grasmere Avenue, Orford, were both handed life sentences at Chester Crown Court on March 14 this year after pleading guilty to manslaughter.”
WHY MANSLAUGHTER AND NOT MURDER?
“These are two very dangerous young men whose future progress will have to be very carefully considered,” the appeal judge concluded.
“FUTURE PROGRESS” – INTO WHAT, MASS MURDER?
errrrmm…. Bystander – accurate indeed. But is it justice?
Good news on DC Corbett.
Back to the article though: WHAT! Those two should have been hanged, it beggars belief. The direction our country is taking is insane. We are no longer allowed to challenge things without fear of being labelled some sort of “ist” and now it seems if you put on some retarded looking but poor oppressed (obviously) expression you get a free pass from our system. Fine, if that is the new way of the country, I have a few scores to settle time to beat my head off a wall till I get a low forehead then nip around to see my local bank manager and give him a severe beating for those charges a few months back.
I am glad that the old trouble and strife talked me out of becoming a plod otherwise I might have just went shooting the bad guys.
Dodd & Palin, big young men, yet to taste the wrath of a country tough on crime. Just let them wait till they get sent on a holiday as a way of integrating them back into society. That should just about scare the pants off them.
Isn’t there just something about the legal decision making processes that simply makes you want to throw up over some of the decision makers ?
There will be uproar (again) and rightly so over this decision to reduce their sentences. There will be (again) a line of eminent and learned people coming up with a dozen & one reasons why this just had to be done and (again) as usual, the smallest consideration goes to the victim.
“Dodd ran off as soon as Wilson approached. While Wilson went to get help, the teenagers led Atherton to the banks of the river Mersey. They chose a route that avoided Warrington town centre and the CCTV cameras.
A week after the murder, Billy Bailey, who testified at the trial, was among a group of young people with Dodd and Palin. Dodd boasted he had hit someone very hard and had wanted to kill him, but had stopped himself. He described the person’s condition saying his eyes were “popping”. One of the teenagers boasted that there was a body in the river and Palin added: “We killed someone.” Dodd and Palin offered to show Bailey where the body was, taking him to a secluded spot of the Mersey, where Atherton’s body was floating. The body was discovered by police after the group was stopped by officers.”
Manslaughter/murder, guess it’s all the same in the end.
[...] tip- story originally seen on inspector Gadget, links from [...]
Once again, I fear that the majority of the comments ranting (over what is a perfectly sensible legal decision) are from police readers. Yet again, those who are supposed to uphold law and order descend into ‘hang ‘em and flog ‘em’ mentality which has largely been responsible for the state we find ourselves in today in England. I am saddened that this attitude is promoted by Inspector Gadget, who should know better, if he is really a police Inspector, that is!
Bystander says; “…descend into ‘hang ‘em and flog ‘em’ mentality which has largely been responsible for the state we find ourselves in today in England.”
Indeed, and by the same ‘logic’ allow me to add that black is white, up is down, truth is lie and war is peace.
Bystander,
It matters not if Inspector Gadget (or any of the poster’s you so smugly denigrate) is really a police officer…. you are just plain WRONG. The people posting here are all members of the public, irrespective of their employment status, and has it escaped your notice that the overwhelming opinion is that the sentence is just WRONG.
So there we have it… Bystander represents the legal establishment, and he thinks the sentance and the reasons for it are acceptable… everyone else disagrees…. true democracy would suggest that Bystander and his limp-wristed cohorts are soundly over-ruled, but then in this real world of hours, we just leave the weak to suffer some more. Hopefully the Christians are right and the weak can schmooze up to the meek and get a bit of inheritance when the day comes… until then, God (anybodys God… I ain’t choosy) help us.
Hang on, let’s be fair. Let’s give them a chance to explain before we judge them.
Bystander, please explain how you reach the conclusion that this “….. is a perfectly sensible legal decision”
(This should be interesting!)
It would be interesting to hear “bystander”elaborate on his opinion that the hang `em and flog `em brigade are responsible for the state of the country today. Also does he really think that three years in prison is sufficient punishment for this hideous crime assuming they can convince a parole board that they are sorry, promise not to do it again and are fully reformed and finally to me, an ordinary MOP ,the charge of “manslaughter”would suggest that the victims death was unintentional.I would be grateful for any explanation of this legal point in regard to this case.
Gadget, this news item is one that also stood out to me, and one that I had intended on writing about myself – except I couldn’t find the words. There are no words. This story almost reduced me to tears. When you see the “before” photo of the man you realise just how badly beaten his face really is. I couldn’t believe it was the same man.
Replace ‘almost’ with ‘did’. I think I’ll have to stop reading the news.
bystander, i am at a loss….exactly what are you? if you are a representative of the justice system are you saying that this is justice?
i have to admit i am fast getting to the position wher i feel i have given in. the job is screwed.
i am a strong beliver in that the police force can only survive if supported by not only the public but also by the law and the government.
does anyone honestly belive we (the police) have this support?
as for this reduction in sentancing….why do we ever bother to arrest anyone?
Bystander – I’ll be blunt. You are an idiot.
I do not know what possessed you to make those comments.
Hang em flog em – too blooming right ! Flogged ones think twice about doing it again, hung ones won’t do it again.
But I suppose you’d give them a holiday in the sun to reflect on what they’d done ?
This is real life mate. Real people getting murdered. They are more than photos and names in a paper.
No wonder we Police are crying out at the lenient sentencing given to offenders – the general public wouldn’t believe it for a minute, it is so poor.
This country is sinking fast and quite clearly, people like you are helping it go down.
Get on the right side, the good side Bystander – it may be you or your family who suffer next time. I sincerely hope you do not have to go through what that poor man did.
I have been able to find a clip of ‘Bystander’ (what an apt name) in action:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RoFwqszPnq4
Well it might as well be!
I too am at a loss to understand Bystander’s sympathy for these two people.
The council moved the victim to get him away from these two, but on finding his new residence they continued to harass him. Bystander accuses posters here of taking the “flog them and hang them” mentality, but we are not talking about a couple of overboystrous children involved in a little bit of mischief here – these two not only deliberately carried out a calculated and consistent series of abuses over a prologued period, but even thought up a ‘nice catchy name’ for what they were doing.
I am sorry, Bystander, but these two NEVER deserve to get out, and overturning the life sentences puts the public at risk. If these two have been calculating enough to carry out this murder, why could they not be calculating enough to fain remorse in front of a sympathetic parole board, and before you know it they’re out again, laughing at authority and choosing their next victim.
And who is it that gets to be on the front line when this happens? Who gets to go round and say “I’m sorry, but your father was killed this morning, we pulled his body from the canal. Can you come and identify it officially?” – that’s right, the police. The very people you, Bystander, are attacking here.
Sometimes the police get it wrong. Sometimes the judiciary get it wrong. On this occasion the appeal court judiciary have got it very badly wrong, and failed in their duty to protect the public. Those who sympathise with that show contempt for the public protection that Inspector Gadget, along with many others in the police force, are desperately trying to maintain.
So I attempt to explain a simple legal point and I am roundly abused as sympathising with the criminals! Where, please, have I expressed any sympathy whatsoever for them?
Silly knee-jerk reactions do the writers no credit.
Careful it may not be the REAL Bystander, he claimed to have been “cloned” on a similar thread by IG a few weeks back. The writing of the bystander on here doesn’t seem as eloquent as the real (or is it continuity) Bystander’s own “learned” tones so I’m not convinced it’s him, even though I don’t agree with his views on a lot of things.
As for this travesty, its another section on the slide to the deepening abyss that the UK finds itself sinking into.
Vigilantism WILL COME unless the police service (not having a dig at the federated ranks-i’m a cop too), CPS and the judiciary start taking firm action against criminals who are making the public’s lives a misery and continuously getting away with it.
Interestingly my friend’s dad got sentenced for fraud and told he would serve a minimum of 4 years. Admittedly it was rather a large scale fraud involving customs and excise and the tax office but I still fail to see how ripping off the customs people is a greater crime then systematically torturing a guy with learning difficulties, beating him to death and dumping his body in a river. Still, I guess my friend’s dad was middle class and couldn’t blame social services and society for the fact that he had turned out to be a criminal.
What a fucking ludicrous sentence for a hideous crime like that.
ps if it is the real bystander posting on here, he is an idiot of the highest order. It’s not just the police who have (by and large) a desire for real punishment for criminals. It’s also the honest, decent, and law abiding public, who we are employed by the crown to protect (even bystander), who want real punishment for crime as opposed to a series of failed initiatives and soft sentencing.
I too have been thinking that the ‘Bystander’ here somehow doesn’t read like the ‘real’ one.
Bystander, could you possibly post something on your own blog to clear up any doubt?
I cant believe the comments made by Bystander, saying the ‘hang em and flog em’ mentality is responsible for the state of society. On the contrary, it is the soft liberals who are responsible, and the rest of us for letting them get away it. In this day and age of political correctness, anyone who does not agree with the opinions of the liberal elite is branded a biggot. Now that people are waking up to this, the backlash has begun. The tide is slowly turning, very slowly!!
However, it may be too little, too late. I have to agree with ‘Big Fella’. Those at the top are too soft on criminals and let down victims and frontline police officers. The social perception of vigilanties is changing. I am not 100% sure who said it, i think it was Edmond Burke, but the quote goes like this, “all it takes for evil to succeed, is for good men to stand by and do nothing”.
I think everyone has been sucked in by the way the newspaper have reported this. What bystander has tried to explain is that what they have received essentially IS a life sentence. There is no real difference between an indeterminate sentence and a life sentence. In fact the only thing i think it does affect is the licence upon release. They will not be released while they still pose a threat to the public, and you really have to have faith in the parole board on this. given the facts does anyone truly believe they will convince a parole board that they are no longer a threat after only 3 years? The facts of this case are the worst imaginable against a very vulnerable person and i understand why everyone thinks hanging would be the best option. Thing is two wrongs don’t make a right.
To paraphrase – all that it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to stand by and do nothing.
It appears that Bystander (apt name) is indicative of the hand-wringing apologist brigade that undermine the sense of justice that most normal people possess.
The country is being run into the ground, yet tonight I am off top work, maybe futile, but if I can make a *small* difference somewhere, it’s one in the face of not just the neds, but the system we have had foisted upon us.
I fundamentally agree with Antoine on this one. The death penalty is a non-starter. However, there are two strands that need further thought.
1) Protection of the public from menaces like this pair. There has to be a robust and , perhaps more importantly, transparent and visible sentencing/parole structure which the public have faith in. In simple terms, the legal niceties need to be brushed away and a clear indication of what the true sentence these pair can expect. This leads onto the second point…
2) Deterrent. Given my moral opposition to the death penalty, there has to be a clear and fearsome deterrent for such crime. It’s all too clear that muddled decisions like this, however grounded in the small print of law, give out the wrong message. Secondly, the ‘cushy’ lifestyle of today’s prisons based largely on ‘human rights’ seems to favour incarceration as the only punishment. Hard labour as an alternative would be one option. This still leaves open the option for inmates to truly repent and reform.
Sorry, Bystander, are you seriously saying that you think three years for killing someone is somehow appropriate ?
IMO the real problem is schools. You think you coppers have your hands tied in dealing with criminals (and to be fair, you do !), try being a teacher. You have virtually *no* sanctions at all of any sort that are enforceable, and (sadly) sections of the “Police Service” (those that apparently want to be Social Workers) that would rather avoid real criminals (and work) will believe any cr*p any child tells them making it a relatively simple task to terminate a teachers career on a whim – permanently – courtesy of CRB checks.
The consequence of this is that no teacher dare do anything very much at all other than keep their heads down. Even a bollocking these days (now classified as “verbal abuse”) is dangerous.
So as a consequence children learn up until 18 that their actions have no consequences, and they do things that are “fun” – like beating up other children, (despite the media, the largest risk of physical/sexual abuse to a child is other children), vandalism and the like and because there is no real sanction, the level of “fun” keeps getting ramped up and up to get that “high”.
The sad thing for you coppers is that (believe it or not) the generation coming through now are worse, and they are *still* getting worse at the younger end. Uncontrollable five year olds are commonplace, ten years ago they were almost unheard of.
Paul, it’s not necessarily 3 years. It might be 33 years if they’re still deemed to pose a threat!
Paul
The REAL problems start before the kids get to school.
Parenting (or total lack of it) is the source of the problem.
Well, it’s the ultimate form of “Prison as rehabilitation” versus “Prison as punishment”.
The question is not whether they are let out or not. It’s that there’s the possibility that they can, if they can convince the board, be let out after 3 years – after deliberately killing someone (in a particularly nasty way).
I do not share your optimism that they will be unable to convince the parole board that they aren’t a threat. I don’t think they are mentally incapable in any way, they are just thugs who have not been controlled. They probably aren’t a real threat *now* ; they are probably in shock that they’ve been sanctioned at *all*.
Let’s face it, if most of us killed someone we sure as heck wouldn’t boast about it to everyone – that’s the “nothing will happen to me” training which is a direct result of the liberal mentality to crime and punishment. They think nothing will happen to them because to date *nothing has*.
The parole board is, I reckon, likely to be stuffed with the people who think three years (as a possibility) is acceptable, that it’s all the fault of society and that they come from a brokenome, and all that cr*p.
That kind of half witted thinking “oh the pore lambs” which has been applied to schools by the idiot liberals (think ACPO style Social Workers) is why these two are in the mess they are in in the first place.
If someone had actually applied some *personally unpleasant* and *effective* sanction when they were younger then it is unlikely this would have happened at all. Children like this think “cautions” from the Police and “counselling” and so on are a joke and no sort of punishment.
I can’t see how the “hang em and flog em” brigade (though I am anti death penalty personally) can be responsible for anything, as the liberal mob have had control over crime, prisons, probation, education etc. for twenty years.
With quite impressive results, I must add. It’s a real achievement to be quite so appallingly bad. (unless you are dim enough to believe the crime statistics which serving officers clearly don’t !)
This is a typical liberal-idiot argument ; faced with evidence that twenty years of “love the criminals” has failed, the argument is that we should “love them more”.
Won’t work.
Stan, yes, I agree.
There’s actually two things to tackle. The root cause : cr*p parenting, needs to be handled, probably by removing more children = more money benefit link.
This will take time to work through the system, however. (IMO twenty years or so, roughly the amount of time it took to trash society in the first place)
In the meantime one needs to tackle the other thing : the immediate effects and symptoms. Which means teachers (and at the more serious crime level, Police Officers) need to be given access to speedy, effective, unavoidable and consistent sanctions which the children find personally unpleasant.
Lord Justice Rix decided the sentencing judge at Warrington Crown Court had not been right to impose life sentences for the killing.
He said: “We think it was an error of principle to say that a discretionary sentence of detention for life should be imposed.”
“These are two very dangerous young men whose future progress will have to be very carefully considered.”
Judge Rix added: “Mr Atherton’s life had been made a misery by the loutish behaviour of those who attacked him.
“They had not sought to kill, but this was a savage, cruel, brutal and vicious attack.”
For those that hark back to a golden age, it seems that the efficacy of prison changed very little from the 70’s to the 90s…
Prisoners reconvicted for standard list offences by year of discharge within two years of discharge from prison:
Year of discharge Percentage reconvicted
1978 58
1979 58
1980 59
1981 58
1982 59
1983 56
1984 54
1985 52
1986 50
1987 57
1988 55
1989 53
1990 52
1991 53
1992 51
1993 53
1994 56
1995 58
1996 57
1997 57
Regarding the above – seems to prove that since the late 1970’s, the sentences have not been not long enough then doesn’t it? Also, while they were inside they couldn’t harm anyone, even if they didn’t reform.
So based on those figures, perhaps we can get away from this ludicrus idea that prison is a place of rehabilitation. It should be a place of punishment, nothing else. Rehabilitation can happen AFTER prison, perhaps during the other half of the sentence that offenders do not currently routinely serve.
Amen to that, boss
“There can be no doubt that sentencing has become more severe over the past decade ( H o u g h et al., 2003a; Cart e r, 2004). The custody rate for indictable offences has increased at both magistrates’ courts and the Crown Court. Average length of custodial sentences has also increased at the Crown Court. The chances of an offender being imprisoned for most offence types are now markedly greater than they were in past decades. The full reasons for these changes are not clear. It does not appear to be caused by structural changes, for example more cases coming before the courts, or (as far as is known) any worsening in the seriousness of offences and offenders involved”. (full report http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hors291.pdf)
“The chances of an offender being imprisoned for most offence types are now markedly greater than they were in past decades.”
This is self-evident nonsense, which I would hazard a guess comes from the HO own dodgy crime statistics, which apparently tell us that crime is falling. Statistically this might be true.
The government rigs statistics continually however and leans on the Police to do so (one recalls the 700 solved crimes in the £700 charity scam ….). I don’t believe for a second the actual crime rate bears any resemblance to the one reported by the HO.
The liberati fail to accept (against common sense and experience) that the old system of good behaviour leads to reward, bad behaviour leads to misery works.
(In fact, in schools nowadays, bad behaviour leads to rewards (for, say, not hitting someone for twenty minutes) ; the children who are consistently well behaved are ignored)
It is true there are a few people who cannot actually control their behaviour. However, this is a tiny minority with serious mental health problems, not chav thugs from a brokenome.
Paul
I think the point which is being made is not that crime is falling but that sentencing is becoming harsher i.e more punitive. Since you seem to favour a more punitive approach this should please you. The problem it seems to me is that if your theory is correct, harsher punishment should equal less crime. However, you argue that crime rates are going up and that the HO rig the stats. Surely then your argument is flawed?
Don’t be fooled by the sentences HANDED DOWN at Court. Hardly any of the offenders actually SERVE the sentence – these days you can get three years (gives you your sentencing stats) but we all know they only go away for a year max.
Also, a sentence in 2007 (x box, colour TV, own clothes etc) does not have the deterent effect of a 1967 sentence.
Oh dear stat hell , but here goes ..the propensity for recidivists behaviour may well be stable (ish ) however, the total prison population has of course increased, currently 136 for each 100,000 of the population (bargain in my view )
between 1981 and 1993 the prison population varied between 42,000 to 50,000.
the growth since 1993 has been marked .one explanation for the rise since 1993 to its current record of 81,500 is that the police have been “proving more cases” against offenders at court,making is easy for the magistrate or jury to convict ,.Clearly , DNA evidence has a lot to do with this , and general good police practices. The fact, therefore, is that as a percentage, even more prisoners ,expressed as a percentage of 81,500, go on to commit more crime .
the question is why ? in a society where living standards are markedly higher than 1981 , more people are choosing crime as away to live. Even without imported immigrant crime (2 gaols purely for immigrants ) more Britons get involved in crime , or are reported and found out . Perhaps the stock of criminals available to be convicted is similar for 1981 as 2007 , in which case the only sensible conclusion is that the Police are better at securing convictions , OR QC’s are better in CC ? , or jury’s more cynical .
Either way the two retarded numb nuts ,in the original point of this blog, should be banged up longer .Lets have a public vote on it .
Every day this pair spent ” terroring” this victim they were committing crimes. Assaults Harrassment, threatening behaviour, false imprisonment. perhaps the list could be longer
Was this taken into account? Surely this prolonged course of conduct, if each incident taken in isolation was to be examined these people would never see the outside of a prison for the rest of their natural lives.
What kind of society do we live in where animals can prey on a vunerable victim for so long without fear of sanction.
it often amuses me to hear of sentences of thousands of years handed down by the courts of our european cousins (applied to reflect each victim i assume).
How long would this pair serve if each crime and abuse of this victim were taken into account?
Sadly i fear it might be nearly 2 or 3 weeks community punishment.
i am with IG on the sentencing. If they are locked up then they can not do harm. it should be about protecting the public not worrying about recidivism.
I think it grossly unfair to criticise Bystander for his sensible interjection. Gadget says – in Daily Mail speak – that their sentence was reduced and they will serve a minimum of three years. That is not the case, that date is the earliest they will be considered for parole board hearings. In actual fact they are unlikely to be out for some considerable time. When he expresses concern about prisoners serving only half their sentence he should realise that it is nothing to do with the courts. This is a government scheme and they have no power to alter it. Truth be told they don’t like it much either! Perhaps a pop or two at the Home Secretary would be more appropriate. Reasoned argument is good grandstanding is not.
Wading in here 60 comments later with a mild swipe at Bystander and annoyingly a defence of his first comment:
I am sure regular readers may have seen one of my rants or posts before so i am sure you are aware that i share little in common with Bystanders apparent beliefs but i am also not as far to right as others who post here occasionally. In fact i am neither left right or liberal, instead I am just in favour of common sense (which is why i am frequently disapointed) I say apparent beliefs as non of us actually know each other to pass comment on one another with any accuracy we just have to assume that we are who we say we are and that includes IG although i do have very good reasons for not suspecting that he is an imposter as Bystander suggests rather stupidly.
However that said Bystander appeared, in at least one post, to simply seem to be clarifying the sentencing change from Life to Indeterminate and mis-understanding of the difference seems to have led to a bit of ranting.
I will attempt to assist and then ill duck for cover
Now life of course does not mean life, it will mean a period of years that will probably lead to the defendants getting out around their 30th birthday if its that long given their ages and our justice system. They will then be on life licence which will mean that any other offence they commit whilst outside will lead to their return to prison, no questions asked for the remained of their days. However they will still be out at around 30 or so!
The change to indeterminate sentence with a minimum tariff of 3 years or so does not mean that they will be out in 3 years what it means is that they will be in a minimum of three years and then they will continually assessed until the threat they pose to society as Dangerous Offenders recedes which the Dangerous Offenders regs may conclude will be never or so long they will be released in time to die of old age, die and be buried. Similarly to the life licence if they do commit another offence after being let out the regs allow for them to go back and never come out again as well.
Practically in this case, in my experience, the indeterminate sentence will hopefully keep them inside far longer than the original life sentence. I base this assessment on the dozens of nutters who i have seen sentenced as dangerous offenders, with a minimum tariff, without over my career since the regs were brought in. I can tell you that non of the nutters sentenced in such a way has been released despite some of them having no minimum tariffs or minimum tariffs that have expired and they are ALL still at her Majesty’s Pleasure even though not all of them committed offences that carry life tarrifs.
Of course the rub is when they will get released but if my contacts are to believed the indeterminate sentencing was actually brought into toughen up the legal system by allowing courts to impose sentences of the same effect as life for much less serous offences. Thus preventing the very bad media attention for the government of “nutter released from prison kills” Indeterminate sentences mean exactly that, an excuse to never let them go.
The Dangerous offenders regs are relatively new and we are yet to see the full effect over time but i believe that they are currently used a means of keeping folk inside as long as they want. However they could also be used to release people early but the implementation of these regs does not lead me to believe that is the case.
The problem with this case is not the fact that they got indeterminate sentences which is generally a good thing for keeping them inside it is in fact the misleading minimum tariff widely publicised which misleads the MOPS and evedently the PLODS to believe the got a shorter sentence than they practically did. The best way to address this is to give them longer minimium tariffs or even just don’t publish the minimum tariffs and we therefore wouldn’t get this level of reaction born out lack of understanding or the overly complicated laws of our land.
Personally since i learnt what the Dangerous Offenders Regs actually mean i have always been very chuffed when someone gets sentenced in such a way as its potentially the best we could get in 99% of situations. Of course this may change if they let the out early but i have not yet seen any sign of the dozen + who i know who got indeterminate sentences getting out early. I have although i seen plenty of people on normal determined tariffs getting out early when i wished they could have been sentenced indeterminately as Dangerous Offenders.
In conclusion i feel that the above rants although honestly expressed are a little too early and to do so know is premature, unfair and inaccurate. The rants should be saved should these two nutters EVER get released early and no thought what so ever should be given to the minimum tariffs as they appear to meaningless in reality.
So basically i defend Bystanders original point even though he didn’t explain it propelry about his following posts were just the same stuff he usually puts out but he / she is entitled to their opinion as you or I am.
Oh yes and i still don’t believe in Capital Punishment, its a stupid idea, always has been as its not very effective as dterent, cost effective or actually a punishment enough, better to make them spend decades facing what they are and what they did.
As far as I am concerned this minor mis-understanding of sentencing terminology isn’t really much of event when compared to the sentencing of the man who punched and blinded the 96 year old on the tram. That was in my opinion a far greater travesty of justice and not at all cluttered by confusion of legal terminology or its meaning.
sorry about the typos above, i was in a rush and distracted by family life, cats dogs, kids, TV etc
Gadget, I’ve linked to this post on my latest post on my blog – it appears that however unwittingly you’ve created a large scale debate that I’m enjoying.
However, the inspiration for this post, the way the man treating is sickening, there’s nothing I can add to the shock and horror felt by the other people commenting on this post.
IG / Guv – Sorry but when you wrote:
“Predictably, there is some fatuous, self-serving legal argument which no-doubt justifies the sentence reduction.
You couldn’t make it up.”
I dont think you served the greater part of your readership well enough here and i have grown used to you doing a lot better. We do have huge problems with sentencing in this country. This however was a very poor example to use of such as the changes will probably result in a longer sentence.
It was a bit tabloid / Daily Mail for my liking, ill set you a development plan for you next review as merely “achieving expectations” isn’t enough for us, hehe.
(I am really ducking now in case IG cracks open his box of IT wizardry and traces me for that last cheeky comment, i’ve seen Die Hard 4 and i am not pressing my keyboard any more in case it blows up)
The key, to me, is Lord Justice Rix’s comment:
“They had not sought to kill, but this was a savage, cruel, brutal and vicious attack.”
Lord Rix was not approaching the case from the point of view of it being murder. Now admittedly they only pleaded guilty to manslaughter because that was the charge brought against them, but I feel that was what let the side down. Reading between the lines I am well aware that guilty parties are much more willing to plead guilty to a lesser charge especially if an overstretched CPS saw that as a method of getting a quick conviction rather than pushing a full trial for murder.
But let’s look at the facts here – these people carried out a campaign of assaults, dehumanization and abuse on this victim. Maybe they didn’t mean to kill him at that point, but unless they were stopped it was only a matter of time before they did kill him.
That is the place of the police in todays western society. To catch these people before they get so emboldened in their actions that they eventually take a life. And even when they did kill their victim, it’s not like they thought “Oh sh*t, we didn’t mean to do that, let’s dump the body someplace and try and pretend it didn’t happen.” No, they were caught with the body in their car, BOASTING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAD KILLED HIM to other people. They even drove concerned neighbours away with planks.
Are you still trying to tell me that this cycle of violence would not have ended up with the victims death, and thereby his murder only be a mistake insofar as they didn’t mean him to die at that point? What of when they got tired of him?
Lord Justice Rix’s comments make it clear that he regarded this as almost an accidental manslaughter. It wasn’t. It was a premeditated and steadily worsening cycle of violence that ended in a mans murder.
I stand by my earlier comment that I fully believe these two capable of manipulating a parole board. The anger these comments are reflecting is the fact that under the original sentence they did not become ELIGIBLE for release this early, and now they do. Whether or not it comes to pass is irrelevant. The concern is that with the changed sentence it COULD come to pass, and should it come to pass the justice system will have failed to protect the public.
Whisperwolf
I agree they theoretically COULD get released much earlier than a life sentence but in my experience they wont but IF they do ill worry about it THEN and NOT, now.
Other than that i will live in hope that this job follows the example of the other Indeterminate sentences i am aware of and they stay inside for a VERY long time.
Reading the endless (but welcome) comments about the legal reasons why they are not away for life yadda yadda blah blah is all very interesting BUT come on folks, we all know it’s bollocks and they should be sitting in a life cell somewhere on the Isle Of Wight. As for being Daily Mail-ish; thanks for the compliment. Oh, and where exactly did I blame the Judge???
notellin,
thanks; yet again you’ve succinctly delivered the info I needed (but wouldn’t have a clue how to find,) when are building a blog in search of common sense?
http://www.thisischeshire.co.uk/display.var.1321796.0.my_nephew_the_killer.php I reproduce this link provided by”ted”earlier.It should be read by everyone to give them some idea of the real situation festering in our sick society today.
What a funny country we live in. Is it just here or is the whole world turning pants?
I need to buy an island (Iwish) I don’t wanna live here anymore.
Remember what Hercule Poirot’s sidekick Captain Hastings said when some hooligan vandalized his Lagonda?
“Hanging’s too good for some people.”
Have just received my copy of my ex forces newspaper and was very interested to read rhat the “Diversity and Community Cohesion Unit” are facilitating a series of workshops to help colleagues responsible for carying out the “Equalty Impact Assessments” of their departmental policies.
I know what a risk assessment is and I even had to do a community impact assessment once but this is a new one on me. I do hope they are important in the fight against crime and disorder!!!
Other matters of importance included an award for being the force where women were happiest at work, the appointment of an officer on secondment for 12 months to represent the AMP ( Association of Muslim Police Officers), the ever popular sponsorship of some new bikes for PCSO’s and a truly bizarre article about the forces support for the national “Not in my Neighbourhood” week. Apparently this involves residents joining with local agencies to say no to crime. Beats policing it I suppose.
Very little in it about any villains being locked up or any other type of real police work. Can’t help feeling glad I’ve fininshed but do sympathise with my former colleagues. Surely the madness will end soon.
Pardon me, but I’m genuinely an ordinary hardworking member of the public…the sort Gadget is sworn to protect, and whose law-abiding lifestyle Bystander is supposed to maintain…I pay my taxes and cast my vote …I’ll serve on a jury if summoned…in our civilisation this qualifies me for the vote…(whether it should or not is an interesting separate issue).
I’m confused by the agendas, sophistries, subtleties behind what has been posted here…Surely there are NO complications – the offenders repeatedly beat up this poor sod…eventually, after terrorising him and making his life a misery, they killed him…this is not in dispute…none of it is…they’re not obvious psychiatric candidates – just vicious nasty minded thugs…
OK – accepted that the death penalty (for many of the reasons stated here and elsewhere) is no longer an appropriate choice, then in a case such as this, they should go away in conditions of maximum unpleasantness, for ALL the remainder of their vile worthless lives – no parole, no privileges, no visits, no mercy, no free periods, no educational activities, no pseudo reformist activities – nothing…just a cell, a bog and three meals – Papillon conditions – ie what their victim got…no mercy, no luxuries…nothing … this is neither inappropriately cruel, nor rocket science…it’s called letting the punishment fit the crime…
I don’t care if criminals recant, regret their crime, find Jesus or whatever – to my mind prison isn’t about reform, but merely about keeping evil minded cunts away from our families and other vulnerable people…
Now I appreciate this isn’t what the sainted pc guidelines say at the moment – nor what the namby pamby twisted laws allow at present…listen up you politicos or would-be politicos who are disappointed that less than 20% of the public can be arsed to vote – promise to change the laws (and if Europe doesn’t like this, then stuff Europe too) and I bet the turnout will increase considerably…in your favour…
Before anyone starts on about extremism, I’ve been an ordinary working class liberal all my working life – never even voted conservative let alone fascist…but after three times being a victim of crime, and seeing at first hand the limitations the police are labouring under, this particular worm is gradually turning…and although I won’t pretend to represent any view other than my own, I’d bet this applies to many other people too…
cogidubnus
Your post is highlights exactly the sort of thing i worry about and that’s apparently normal regular folk like yourself become driven away from your normal belief structure towards a more desperate mindset where you feel increasingly victimised/under siege/powerless and distrustful of the system.
I believe weak sentencing criteria (not like this case as its not weak) in general has this hidden effect and not just failing in deterring and preventing crime by virtue of them being inside but also fails to effectively rehabilitate.
The hidden effect is when normal folk wake up and realise this and react in completely undesirable / unlawful ways. I have investigated a summary justice / vigilante offence and the “normal bloke” got himself in a load of legal trouble when the law/we caught up with him,. I worry more incidents will happen because if they do ill do my best to successfully investigate them as well and therefore more “normal folk” pushed too far WILL get into trouble by becoming what they hate.
However the long term worry is that society will loose faith in its Justice system and people will end up voting for the first lunatic far right or left fringe party to come along that is promising and end to the tyranny of crime regardless of the fact they cant actually deliver it! We are already seeing some signs of it on our local councils in the North and frankly it worries me.
When people feel desperate, they do desperate things and people in our working or even our middle classes are feeling increasingly more desperate.
uphilldowndale Says:
November 9th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
notellin,
thanks; yet again you’ve succinctly delivered the info I needed (but wouldn’t have a clue how to find,) when are building a blog in search of common sense?
You must be being having a sarcastic overload as my posts never seem to anything remotely like succinct hehe, they always seem to go on far longer than intended and i don’t have the energy to edit them afterwards.
Still it makes me look busy so the wife doesn’t make me fix a DIY bodge i did about the house although she always figures out my game all too soon for my liking. Suppose its my fault for marrying a clever (and tolerant) woman (shes watching me as i type this last line)
Bystander has informed me that he did NOT leave the ‘hang ‘em and shoot ‘em’ comment. His other two comments are genuine. Someone out there is a cheeky monkey indeed!!
The announced punishment is ridiculous.
However, the fact that these two guys have not been properly punished is not the fault of the Courts. The Courts are obliged to follow the legally binding government rules on sentencing.
Don’t attack the Judiciary.
It is the government’s fault.
Which party did you vote for last election (if you bothered that is)?
Frederick
[...] and who’s army? It’s been a week of anger and resentment. I thought things couldn’t get worse until I attended the remembrance parade in Ruraltown on [...]
Stop whining to us Gadget, you are the one with a warrant card!
Remember “without fear or favour”, these judges are CLEARLY on drugs, go out and arrest them!
Re IG’s post @ 0734 on 2007-11-10:
And I had thought that the ‘hang ‘em and shoot ‘em’ comment really was genuinely Bystander’s (it is nicely in his style) with the other two being fakes (mispellings and not very well put together).
How strange that he should claim to you that it should be exactly the other way round.
Michael
IG
i have read your blog several times before and after this one i just had to write
I think it is disgusting that they received a DPP order as opposed to life in prison
as for the manslaughter charge as opposed to murder, i believe it was something to do with the fact the plead guilty to manslaughter and the judge agreed the thugs hadnt meant to murder him!
In this case the only kind of punishment i can see for these 2 ’specimens’ is for them to be locked up in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives, no luxuries, no visits from outside prison, they should have their lives cease to have any meaning for what they did
Hanging is too good for them, the punishment is over too quick, nothing these thugs say can ever justify the fact they took the life (after a period of ‘terroring’) of anothe person
All i can say is i hope they dont get the same treatment Jamie Bulgers killers get when they were released from their DPP and given (allegedly) plastic surgery, New I.D, a new life somewhere in the world
just gas the bastards i say treat them like shit !
do it live on bbc 1 …stuff human rights
“# Antoine Says:
November 9th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Paul, it’s not necessarily 3 years. It might be 33 years if they’re still deemed to pose a threat!
”
And I might win the lottery !!!!
you might win the lottery!
[...] naming it Mohammed is “an insult to religion”. Meanwhile, to contrast, over here life sentenced reduced to minimum 3 1/2 years for beating a disabled man unconcious, urinating on his body and throwing him into a river to drown? What.. the… [...]
I’m just suprised that after reading all replies that no one has mentioned the fact that Justice should be done, but Justice should be SEEN to be done. It’s all very well spouting about sentencing policies ect. What message does this send out Joe Public,and the families of the victim. MR RIX YOU ARE A KNOB !!!